JK addresses “language policing”

[Mayyouleave]

Haven't seen a thread on this, if there is one I'll ask for this to be removed.
JK posted about language policing today.

It has started a lot of intense discussion (as do most JK posts) however this time it is mainly from women and men who are gender critical, sex realists, trans windows etc who are upset and annoyed about her post.
I agree with her about language policing, I wonder what the thoughts are on this board?

x.com/jk]]

I'll copy the text in for those not on twitter/X

*I say the following again because, while I understand people's strong views on the matter, some of the language policing is getting a bit wearing.

As I've said multiple times, I do not believe that a person can be born in the wrong body and I don't believe in gendered brains or souls. I believe the ideology that preaches such ideas is dangerous.

However, there are people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - some of which I'm truly sympathetic to, others far less so - all of whom call themselves 'trans.' I use the word 'trans' in the full awareness that this umbrella term covers multiple groups who have nothing else in common with each other, such as straight men who enjoy cross-dressing for erotic purposes and young lesbians who, tragically, feel they'll be happier without their breasts.

When I talk about sex-based rights, I use the word 'trans' to denote 'people who wish to be seen or treated as the opposite sex', no more or less. Telling me ad nauseam that 'there is no such thing as a trans person' isn't overly helpful, because you're trying to pull me into a different argument, on which I've already made my position clear.*

You previously said that you expect childen to refer to a man as Miss to be kind,

I said that my children are likely to do so. One of my daughters has a friend who identifies as non-binary. Recently, I've noticed that my daughter has started using "she" when talking about her friend. I'm currently copying that, rather than avoiding pronouns. My other daughter (my autistic daughter who asked for puberty blockers 2 years ago) uses preferred pronouns, although I don't think she's picked up on her sister's friend. I would anticipate them using the preferred pronouns of any adult or child who asks them to do so and that their reason for doing so is that they want to be kind.

but its ok because we can explain twanw,

We have had lots of different conversations over the last two years about the whole subject. My children know that people can't actually change sex, no matter how much they might want to do so. Originally, my older daughter thought she could do this via puberty blockers then testosterone. At one point, I asked her why she wanted testosterone and she said it was so that she could be strong and stop the bullies. We're now in a position where she's starting to think and talk about the impact of people who identify as the opposite sex on society. The conversation is unfolding slowly and I need to take it at my children's pace. I wrote on a different thread that we recently had a conversation in the car (started by my other daughter) about the risk of children being in mixed-sexed accommodation. We explored the risk of a "biological male" who was attracted to girls being in the room with girls overnight. I also talked about the Wyoming sorority case with them and we talked about how grim it was that the TW student was getting erections while being in the room where the girls were changing in the sorority house.

then say you have to use preferred pronouns to not alienate your daughter.

I said I avoid using pronouns altogether when I'm talking about someone who has a gender identity that differs from their sex.

I also said that on some occasions (not when I'm talking to my daughter) I might use preferred pronouns in a conversation. I can give a relatively recent example: I was talking to a male friend who thought that TW shouldn't be in women's spaces unless they had had a "sex change" op. I told him I disagreed and talked about Sarah Jane Baker as an example of someone I wouldn't want in women's spaces. It was a long conversation and we covered lots. His original assumption was that all TW did have these operations, so it's fair to say his position had shifted since the start. Throughout, my friend had been using "she" and I had been using no pronouns. During the SJB part of the conversation, at one point I said "he". My friend immediately "corrected" me by interrupting what I was saying with the word "she". Instead of pivoting the conversation on to an argument about him policing my language, I said "fine, I'll use "she" if you prefer". I then put heavy emphasis on the word "she" or "her" every time I used it. We both ended up laughing and agreeing that the phrase "her penis" sounded odd. I didn't push it any further and we moved on to other things within the wider conversation.

I understand the trap you are in personally,

The "trap" that I'm in is that my daughter could still be influenced and/or encouraged by others to believe that she is "in the wrong body". Worse than that, there are adults who she interacts with (e.g. at school) who have influence within the public body system who might view me as a risk to my own daughter because I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity. So yes, I'm in a trap in that respect. However, I'm having lots of conversations IRL to help change that. Lots has already changed for the better but there is still more to do. I'm having conversations not only about my daughter but others like her, because to be effective, change needs to happen at scale.

but cant you see how we all have contributed to this position?

Yes. That's why I have to think carefully about how I navigate conversations. The example I gave above about the SJB conversation was actually a debate that my friend and I had agreed to have. He loves a good debate and I said I needed the practice because of how difficult the whole subject is. His wife and my husband were watching us from the opposite sofa - we had all just had dinner together at their house and had moved in to the lounge specifically to debate. I kept calm throughout and he got quite animated when I didn't compromise on some TW being allowed in women's spaces (he had already conceded on sports by this point) - as I said above, he thought that post-operative TW should do. Afterwards, his wife (who is a very good friend of mine) messaged me and asked if I was OK, because of how animated he had been. I said I was fine and had actually quite enjoyed it - I hadn't realised I'd be able to do it TBH. I went to a state school and we only covered debating in one lesson, whereas he went to a private school where they did it lots.

Edited to add: my "enjoyment" was mostly because I knew I wanted to challenge myself to see how it would go, so his suggestion that we did it as a debate (after we touched on the subject over dinner and had disagreed) felt like exactly the right way to do that.

That sounds like a very productive debate @BonfireLady. Do you have any tips?

Did you plan topics you wanted to cover? Did you drive the debate or explore, counter and defuse points your friend raised?

I ask because my DH, a good, principled, rational man is very BeKind. To the point that any attempt to talk about any of this results in him clamming up and/or getting upset.

I would hope to reach him through rational discussion. It grieves me to have an area of our relationship where I feel we are not being honest with each other. Disagreement would be ok if disappointing.

To the point that any attempt to talk about any of this results in him clamming up and/or getting upset.

I guess because to some extent he knows it's not rational, it's emotional. I imagine there's some cognitive dissonance there, for a rational thinker.

Bonfire I think you have it about right in terms of pragmatism and understanding you have to read your audience and explain slowly why pronouns themselves as problematic.

I won't use cross sex pronouns. At a push I will neutralise them. And I do think in order to avoid an argument that's ultimately not going to be in my best interests or in line with harming how I feel about this in the long run.

You simply can't move forward if you create those head on confrontation points. Because that's what causes entrenchment.

"Progress doesn’t travel a straight line, but instead zigs and zags in fits and starts.” - Obama

It's a really valuable observation by Obama. He's repeated the point in several different ways over the years. I think it's one that holds true in terms of searching for a way forward for everyone in a society and is in line with the point that the truth can never ultimately be denied as it always shows itself.

Generally speaking TRA concede what they've already lost. If they were convinced by debate that men shouldnt be in womens sport, they would also agree that men shouldn't be in any womans spaces. Its the same principle.

But they know they have lost or losing contact sports, and medicating children, so say those are the exceptions. But because TWAW they can use womens toilets. Thats not being convinced by the GC debate.

They are losing contact sports, rapists in womens prisons, medicating children because safeguarding is eventually kicking in.

Agreed. But most people aren't TRAs.

@RedToothBrush I feel the same about your approach. I think it's great. What to do about pronouns is one of the most difficult parts. To me it comes down to personal choice. I've explained how I approach things and I appreciate there will be people who think I do it wrong. That I'm somehow conceding and/or naive. I've been really upset by this in the past, specifically where one thread got uncomfortable and I found myself trying to explain where I was coming from but getting nowhere.

I really love that Obama quote.... and the irony that he was one of the main instigators of the problem in US legislation now supporting gender identity belief as fact in many of the US states and at federal level too 🤦‍♀️

@WaterThyme my biggest tip of all would be to consider not talking about it at all with your husband. Finding a way to avoid the topic by helping him understand that your "no debate" approach is purely because It grieves me to have an area of our relationship where I feel we are not being honest with each other. Disagreement would be ok if disappointing.

In other words, explaining it as grief and acceptance that it's not a subject you'll agree on. My husband is aware that I'm supporting our daughter and I tell him some of the things I've done but I'm aware he's not as invested as I am on it all. On the subject of women's rights, he's got a similar level of cognitive dissonance to the friend I mentioned above. I don't generally ask his opinion about anything like that but after he watched the "debate" from the other sofa I asked him what he thought about TW in women's spaces. His views were pretty much the same as our mutual friend i.e. post-operative should be fine. I responded with something like "surely the fact that some women say that's not OK is enough to mean that it's not a good enough answer". He accepted that at face value and we moved on.

I was tempted to push further by making the point that if TW retain male strength from puberty and it's obvious that this is unfair and at times unsafe in sport, surely it was obvious that this same retained strength represented a danger to women - and that we have different changing rooms and toilets for each sex because of this danger... because that's how safeguarding works - it's not about the individual because we can't be inside everyone's head to know their intent, so all we can do is follow statistics... and we know from statistics that a) most violence against women is done by men b) that a female gender identity doesn't render a biological male "safe" in women's spaces (arguably the statistics might suggest the opposite) and c) lots of distraction and deflection is used e.g. TRAs point out that most violence against women is perpetrated by men that they know rather than strangers....

But I didn't bother with any of that because I knew he wasn't interested in hearing it. That does irk me a little but there's plenty about my husband that irks me (and about me that irks him 😂) so I prefer to focus on the things that don't. We have tons in common and he supports me in different ways, particularly because he recognises the impact that this whole societal mess is having on me, so he holds the fort at home when I sometimes need respite.

The pronouns one is one I've really grappled with over the years and struggle. I've wobbled in how I approach in on MN over the years. But I'm now pretty settled on sticking to correct sexing as much as possible and actively resisting using them in all other situations as far as I can.

Ive learnt to read the room better too and I find that if you pick the right argument then you can get people to start thinking and once you get to that point of getting people to start thinking again rather than just repeating what they are told, the rest does eventually start to crack over time.

It's taken years with some of my closest friends but they do get there is a problem that leaves them feeling uncomfortable with something eventually.

It just doesn't sit right to lie and that's always going to be there. And actually the people that know that most are those who demand it. Hence why pronouns are so important as they symbolise compliance and a lack of willingness to question or even an act of surrender.

I am happy to use they. I’ve always used it, could be really helpful in my job, if you were talking about someone’s child and couldn’t remember their name or sex. It does have a long history of being used in the singular. If it means I can avoid confrontation with young people hyper sensitive to transphobia, all well and good. I have used wrong sex pronouns when sharing space with trans boys and trans girls, if it was absolutely unavoidable. I’ve also unthinkingly correctly sexed, but wasn’t challenged, I think, because of them being guests in my house etc. I do struggle when interacting with trans people in their professional capacities, it does seem like a costume , and makes me uncomfortable, just as I would if they were dressed as Zippy or Bungle.

Thank you @BonfireLady, that is good advice.

I think I actually dislike "they" more than opposite sex pronouns, though I could not really explain why. I'd rather simply avoid using any pronouns at all. The chance I'd switch to they is about the same as opposite sex, which is to say I'd generally rather not but in some cases (work, with vulnerable people) it might be something I did.

But in any case, I think it's important to understand that some arguments are more fundamental, and some things are more secondary. Getting caught up in always holding the lines on the secondary battles can cause strategic loss. The nature of sex, what "being trans" could possibly actually mean, what the medical/scientific support is, why people actually want to do it - those are the most basic questions. If those ideas change, the rest will follow.

It doesn't work the other way, you can't actually make an argument from language that gender ideology is wrong.

It's awkward and grammatically incorrect to use they. Plus it identifies you as not being fully on board with opposite sex pronouns so there's a sense of exposure to it anyway.

I try and avoid it now if I can.

I've also grappled with the whole pronouns thing and shifted slightly as a result of that. As far as I know, I've never used preferred pronouns (of the opposite sex) for a child, although it's possible that I may have done before I started looking in to any of this stuff - I can't imagine ever finding myself in that situation though. The nearest I ever got to it was my acceptance that at some point I might end up doing that for my own daughter, but only after she'd gone through a full exploration of everything (that was my starting position when supporting her - it was a position of ignorance and we based on my Be Kind approach to it all).

At one point pretty on in my journey, I used to use sex-based pronouns for children and preferred pronouns for any adult. I think this is where I'd got to by the time I first joined MN. Then I shifted again when I learned about detransitioners and adults who were vulnerable to believing they were "in the wrong body". This next shift led me to make exceptions for TW and TM who were actively engaged in conversations where they discussed the harm that was happening to children e.g. I used "she" for Caitlin Jenner, Debbie Hayton and Blaire White and I used "he" for Buck Angel. For everyone else I used "they". Over time I saw compelling arguments for why I might not want to use opposite sex pronouns ever, so I stopped (except in specific circumstances, such as what I've shared above). I've put a screenshot below which summarises why I don't want to use them in general.

I've now settled on what I think will be my final position: if anyone has preferred pronouns that are different from the ones that would normally be used for their sex, I rearrange my words to avoid using pronouns at all. If I ever need to do so, I put the sentence/phrase fully in to the third person e.g. "when talking about a TW, I will never use their preferred pronouns". But mostly, I just avoid any pronouns, as I personally find "they" clunky. Yes, it's mind gymnastics but IMO it's worth it to avoid the conversation centring on the pronoun issue and/or enforced language and never moving on i.e. I think we'd end up in a stalemate where the other person was insisting that I used "correct" pronouns and I was insisting that I would make my own choices. The definition of the word "correct" would be completely opposite, depending on whether I was talking to a Be Kind/TRA type person or a "GC" type person.

I fully accept that I'm not going to change a TRAs mind and I agree that Generally speaking TRA [only] concede what they've already lost. But there are times when it's been helpful to genuinely listen to how some "TRAs" feel about everything. I've come across some who are parents of transitioned (adult) children, for example, where it's clear how much they love their children and how difficult the journey has been for the whole family. They have become TRAs because of their allyship and support for their child.

At some point, I'm going to talk to my daughters about what is summarised below. We're not at that stage yet. However, I did tell my MIL! Not using the exact words below but she had been telling me about a conversation she had had with a TW who ended up on her breakfast table every morning while they were in the same hotel together.... The TW had been telling my ML about how "I've always felt this way since I was a child" etc.

Unfortunately I can't find the screenshot I was looking for. It was Admiral Invalidator on X.

I'll try and paraphrase (and will keep my fingers crossed that my post doesn't get deleted by MNHQ 🤞)

It was something like "if you use preferred pronouns for a TW, you're giving them the equivalent of a hand job".

Obviously not every TW is visiting from Málaga Airport but it's certainly food for thought! 🤢

I continue to find the various opinions on pronoun use fascinating. For many parents this is the clash point with a trans identity child and with "allies". I have tried (and still do) to avoid using third person pronouns altogether, but my ingrained understanding of language means that I fail - frequently. Third person pronouns are usually used automatically, without conscious thought. I don't always know that I am going to use one until I have used it.

The standard gender ideologist position is that it's fine, provided that I apologise profusely for my mistake. But they mean that I made the mistake of using the wrong pronoun, not the mistake of using one at all. At the moment, my son is not talking to me, apparently because of this issue, though I have not used a third person pronoun about him in his presence for a year and a half. I am no longer prepared to accept coercion to use ideological language that I don't agree with. So we are at an impasse.

I think that, for the sake of having a relationship with him, I would jettison my principles and betray anyone else adversely affected - but I find myself incapable of doing that. I would have to use his new name and the pronouns he demands consistently to stand a chance of overturning decades of habit. The mental anguish, the cognitive dissonance, of doing that is something I am unable to countenance. I sympathise with parents who talk themselves into pretending that their son is their daughter or vice versa, but they lose their integrity in doing so if they can't embrace gender ideology completely.

This is why parent support groups either follow the Mermaids route and become gender ideology advocates, or gravitate to scepticism.

I admire BonfireLady's careful threading of a path through this.

I find the language such a minefield- always feel like I risk being told off by someone, from either side of the debate.

I tend to refer to people ‘with a trans identity’ rather than saying ‘trans person’. It feels more comfortable for me to say because it recognises that the person is making a choice, rather than it being something that just randomly happened to them. I do believe gender dysphoria is a real experience (but rare), and having recently heard an eminent psychiatrist say that he believes gender dysphoria is a symptom rather than a condition in its own right, I now believe that to be the case.

A ‘person with a trans identity’ might have that identity for any number of reasons (fetish/trauma/internalised homophobia etc). I don’t know whether TRAs would find my wording offensive but I think it sounds polite enough, so that’s what I use.

It's all a bit 'assimilate, you will be assimilated' isn't it?

And I do think that if you capitulate as a parent you lose all authority as a parent. And you give up on your child because you end the escape ladder because of your reinforcement and legitimisation.

'Acceptance' might not necessarily be about accepting someone gender identity, but actually accepting that you will comply with gender identity beliefs.

It's a minefield.

And it's certainly not a neutral act to passively go along with it. I do get the quote BonfireLady paraphrases for that reason.

And I admire yours.

This is such a great post. It demonstrates the "trap" that you and I are both in but for very different reasons. The primary difference being a luck of timing, I suspect. Where what's happening to and around my daughter has been happening in later years to what has been happening to and around your son.

Even though I was still on a huge learning journey at the time when I first had to help my daughter a couple of years ago, it's thanks to a combination of intuition and learning about experiences from parents like you that has given me confidence in finding ways to navigate this whole sorry mess.

(And to anyone who has seen me post to RapidOnsetGenderCritic before, yes, I use sex-based pronouns when talking to him about his son. I can recognise how important it is likely to feel to know that someone is listening and trying to empathise with what a parent in his situation is going through. If you've ever seen STILLTish on X, you get a small insight in to the online abuse that parents can receive if they don't affirm. If we were in a situation where I was interacting with his son, or allies of his son, I would default to pronoun avoidance. I guess we can add this as my third type of excuse 🙃)

Edited for clarity.

Thank you everyone for the really careful and considered posts. This is a really interesting discussion.

I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to navigate a path through this when you are trying to support your child/children but you also fundamentally disagree with the ideology they adhere to and the things they ask you to support. Your testimonies and wisdom in relation to that must surely be a help to other parents facing the same, and it certainly brings into focus the real, practical battle this is for some everyday. It must be so difficult to juggle principles and also what you can do to best support your child. 💐

I've found that I am actually much more likely to be flexible with people I don't know, than with people like my kids.

The reason being, that mostly with strangers I really don't know the situation. It's a passing interaction or very shallow. Rather like when I meet people in passing through my job who I am pretty sure are fantasists, generally I don't challenge them on what they say. I don't know enough to know if they are likely to kick off, or are convinced that it means I want them dead, or if there is some weird medical situation, or if they are actually really mentally ill and delusional. There is a girl who spends most of the day at my library who sometimes thinks shadows are talking to her and talks back - I generally don't argue about that with her either.

The only significant examples where I've used preferred pronouns is a trans woman I knew for about 30 years, who was elderly when we first met and was introduced to me then as a women, and it actually only recently that anyone apart from close associates knew this person had been born a man. And there it's mainly because it would be confusing to change now, for me and everyone else.

The thing I have with "they" used in the singular is that it is actually a perfectly good use of the pronoun and has been for hundreds of years. It's part of the English language. However, it is used to refer to unknown ("If the person who borrowed my pen would bring it back they would make me very happy") or indeterminate ("If anyone has any questions, would they ask me after the meeting") persons. So what I find disturbing in using "they" for someone I know, or who is identified, is that it really clashes with the normal use. It's weird to refer to Claire, John or Bungo, who I know and speak to daily as if I didn't know who they were.

I'm pasting this from another thread, as it's very much on topic when it comes to when it could potentially be beneficial to add adapt to the language of gender identity belief on limited occasions (or perhaps to avoid pronouns entirely as an alternative):

I recall reading something by Helen Joyce where she was musing on the fall out from an interview where she refused to call a transwomen she and had pissed off a commentator who regularly called out trans extremists but thought she was rude because of this. She was wondering whether at times she needed to "play the game" in the interest of moving discussions on (I think the one she was in got brought to an abrupt end because of her refusal). I don't recall her final conclusions but it made for interesting reading given that she's always so clear.

Here's the link to the comment:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5187824-new-childrens-gender-identity-clinic-clinical-trials-and-cass?reply=139152257&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

@WaterThyme thank you for expressing your sadness on this issue so succinctly. I am at a similar impasse with my husband and it breaks my heart. As many dads are, he was so full of awe for me at growing our children and giving birth. The wonder in his eyes, how his eyes sparkled, how proud he was of me! Pregnancy and childbirth and breastfeeding being the most empoweringly womanly thing I have ever done, I find it extraordinarily upsetting that he now seems to think a man who puts on a frock should be in the same category. Am I no longer awesome? Was my husband pretending all along?

Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread - I just wanted to express that I feel similar to you, @WaterThyme , and it's horrible.

Looping back to comment on this one.

My daughter still isn't entirely sure what being a girl is. She really hates her breasts and we've got an agreement in place that we'll look at her options together (at the moment she talks about mastectomy or reduction) when she's 21. She's 15 now and has already made significant inroads in both her understanding of what "being male" and "being female" actually mean. Obviously I'm hoping that she'll continue to build that understanding as she matures and that she'll continue to feel less impacted by her autism-related puberty distress. She recently had two periods (after over a year of not having any, owing to the progesterone only pill) and handled them amazingly well. I was quite blown away by how she did TBH, particularly as the first occurrence was when we were on holiday over the summer and had to get on a long flight the next day.

Teachers at school sometimes write me emails about her. When it's clearly an email specifically about her (not just the obvious generic cut and paste) and they have chosen to use "they" I include a request in my response that they don't do this.

Their use of "they" suggests that my daughter might not actually be female. That somehow it doesn't quite fit her. It's a social transition being made on her behalf. Unfortunately there are lots of examples of non-binary identified females getting mastectomies to align with their declared identity, so (as per Cass) changing pronouns really isn't a neutral act.

To be clear, I only "police" the language when it's directly about my daughter. I don't want her to receive the idea through osmosis that she might not actually be a girl simply because she likes her hair short, wears "boys' clothes" and plays football.

When I hear people using "they" as a substitute for opposite-sex pronouns for other people online or IRL, I fully accept their choice and reasoning for doing so. Personally though, I still go for pronoun avoidance in these situations because I don't want to "rubberstamp" any idea that the person in question (child or adult) might not actually be their sex.