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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
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GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/10/2024 15:30

Sorry, no it’s not ‘an intrinsic part of being a feminist’. There are a heck of a lot more feminists out there who are not trans exclusionary.

We are not trans exclusionary in our feminism @ElleWoods15

Include transmen because they are female and feminism is for females.

Transwomen are male, they are part of the patriarchy, part of the oppressor class of females and a part of what feminism is trying to liberate females from. So feminism most certainly is not for transwomen. HTH

PennyApril54 · 07/10/2024 15:30

I'd maybe just say to everyone including him that in this family we accept and care about each other as we are growing up and navigating the world and it's important everyone is shown respect so you ask all the siblings to try to do this. I'd suggest not giving him/ this situation any more attention as if it is a 'phase' of some sort fighting his corner will only feed it, cause him to source support elsewhere and this could make it more appealing for longer/ alienate him from the family. Just treat him normally and re tye make up / clothes you could say that that isn't how women actually dress/ style themselves and encourage him to rethink his look. All this will make it easier for him to return to being male if he decides that's what he wants to do and also help the transition if this is going to be long term
*I'm aware of the pronouns I have used in this post. I have done this to be clear for communication purposes and in line with the OP.

WiddlinDiddlin · 07/10/2024 15:36

Totally unsurprising that this sudden realisation about himself occurs at University where within the first 18 months, many teenagers will suddenly realise, reinvent or discover their 'true' selves.

Whether its being vegan and joining Greenpeace, deciding they're gay or bisexual, spaffing their grant on a tail and joining the Furries or Therians... for some, 'trans' is the new... whatever that was, a normal part of going out into the world and working out who the fuck you are.

You can't exactly ignore it... if you object then you give him the 'my family hate me/won't support me' narrative that many young people glom onto as a device to lean on, get attention and so on...

I'd be leaning towards a 'Ok then, but you are aware women don't dress like that, and you look faintly ridiculous... if you'd ACTUALLY like to dress in a more feminine way... I can advise...' (Which is highly unlikely to result in him actually asking for advice because no teenager wants advice on how to dress from their parent ever, but also doesn't give him the 'everyone hates me' narrative!).

Btw, I do have trans friends and yes, lots of transwomen do indeed dress in jeans and hoodies and scruffs and comfy clothing. You won't notice them 99% of the time as they're trundling along doing their own thing and have been for decades. They're trying pretty hard NOT to draw attention to themselves and have chosen names that are bog standard, close to their deadname sometimes or at least, a common name of the era they were born in.

The 'quietly getting on with it' sector of the trans community is pretty much as horrified by the more recent 'lets make a huge fuss and seek all the attention' crowd as anyone else really!

mixedpeel · 07/10/2024 15:37

@OrlandointheWilderness : Why is it transwomen never dress like me!?! Jeans and a hoody, no make up and nails. No fancy hair etc. I would have far, far less of a hard time getting my head around it if a true reflection of womanhood was represented, but no. It's always a stereotype. A bit of a strange one in this case too I'm afraid.

Some transwomen dress exactly as you describe, jeans and a hoody, no make-up etc. Maybe you just don’t notice them?

mixedpeel · 07/10/2024 15:39

Cross-posted with @WiddlinDiddlin making the same point.

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 15:43

LittleMissViper · 07/10/2024 14:22

If you can open a dialogue with him, first thing I'd do is be asking what his aim is with all this. What is he hoping to achieve? And, more importantly, when will he consider his transition is complete? Hopefully his answers will give you some insight about why he's going down this path, and what his actual understanding about the process is.

It might be that you need to spell it out that there is no way to control the thoughts, beliefs and actions of other people. So if his ultimate plan and ongoing happiness involves everyone else accepting that he's a woman, then he's dooming himself to failure from the start, and setting himself up for a lifetime of misery.

Should it become apparent that part of it is that he likes dressing in and/or has a fascination with historical women's fashion, then there are many alternative ways he can explore and embrace that without transgenderism. He could get involved with theatre, or steampunk groups, or re-enactment, or live action roleplaying.

This is one of the things I’ve been chatting to DH about - we just don’t understand why. What’s he gaining? You can’t actually change sex. Any (legal and reasonable) behaviours, preferences or clothes (even Edwardian ones) are open to all … so why?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 15:46

I think there are a range of reasons men do it, OP. He's young, so there's likely to be peer group influence.

Thegreenhandbag · 07/10/2024 15:49

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 11:00

I hope this so much. I'm really confused as he's got lots of men around him who are certainly not your 'stereotypical man'. Men in all sorts of styles, hair, make up and who ignore gender stereotypes. We're all really accepting of individuals. Does make me wonder if this is the only way to shock us.

It’s more likely he’s got involved in some online group or forum where this is their fetish.

If he’s 6f ft 2 and broad he’s probably used to being able to do and be as he likes without suffering shit for it.

FragileIsAsFragileDoes · 07/10/2024 15:54

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 15:43

This is one of the things I’ve been chatting to DH about - we just don’t understand why. What’s he gaining? You can’t actually change sex. Any (legal and reasonable) behaviours, preferences or clothes (even Edwardian ones) are open to all … so why?

To fit in with a crowd?
To make himself interesting to some specific people?
Because he is gay but would prefer not to be?
Because he enjoys cross-dressing and transvestism=transgender in today's brave new world?
Because he is distressed or lonely or lost and this is a socially acceptable way to reinvent himself into someone who is none of these things?
Because he has fallen down a Reddit rabbit-hole?
Because he is experimenting with identity and who he is and is trying things on for size?
Because he wants to shock?
Because he is AGP?

I don't know your DS, OP, and some of these may not fit at all. So many possible reasons. I do know my DD (at uni doing computing) seems to have quite a high proportion of transwomen on her course.

Molly546 · 07/10/2024 16:00

ElleWoods15 · 07/10/2024 14:30

Sorry, no it’s not ‘an intrinsic part of being a feminist’. There are a heck of a lot more feminists out there who are not trans exclusionary.

I do know how I define a woman, and it includes trans women. That’s a different view point to you- and as I’ve said many times before, I’m perfectly comfortable with a world in which we have different views.

But I am a feminist because I believe in, and fight for, the rights of women.

Sorry, those who are gender critical don’t get to claim feminism as their own and exclude everyone else!

I'm very confused by this. So you think biological men/transwomen are women so they are entitled to be in all women's spaces? Biological men/transwomen like Isla Bryson should be in women's prisons? Biological men/transwomen like Laurel Hubbard should be allowed to compete as women in the Olympics? How can you say you fight for the rights of women while also saying the likes of rapist Lexi Secker is a woman and so should be in prison with women? Or that women should lose out on medals to the likes of Lia Thomas? I don't understand how you could consider yourself feminist at all.

OP I disagree with those saying that your son is an attention seeker, I don't think it's something they would say if they lived with an autistic teen. Desperate to find somewhere they feel they are accepted yes, attention seeking no IMO. I also think that your kids ripping the piss or you telling him it's not a good look may not change his views on how he dresses if it is something he feels strongly that he likes. I know my 19 year old with ASD couldn't care less about what others think of the way he looks, he would happily go to work stinking of BO and having not washed his hair for 2 weeks, he literally couldn't care less because he thinks it's fine.

It's quite possible that your DS doesn't think this is a big deal at all, he can't put himself in you or your others kids shoes to understand the impact it might have on them. He really likes the material of the dress so why wouldn't everyone else? He thinks he looks great so why wouldn't everyone else? He thinks the name sounds nice so why wouldn't everyone else? He's not keyed in to social norms the way NT people are, he doesn't get social expectations.

He might be coming at this from a very different understanding to what you are. Of course he can't put himself in the shoes of a woman, he probably has no idea that he is being a strange caricature of a woman. He probably knows though that he doesn't like himself much, and people didn't seem to like him much when he was male.

I think your best bet is a gentle conversation, you could ask him what was wrong with being male. I think the answer to that could tell you a lot. You could ask him why he thinks being a woman would be better, what does he think a woman is. When did he first think he might be trans and why, and where has he got his information about it from. That is probably way too many questions for an autistic teen in one go but over a few weeks or whatever.

I think it's might be really useful to help him work it out for himself that this is not about him being a woman - because he can never be a woman - and help him try to work out what his issues actually are and why pretending to be a woman seems so appealing. It might just be that he thinks if he likes the material of dresses/wearing dresses then he must be a woman, I think that is probably the thinking around now anyway.

I would let the siblings be quite honest with him though, he's autistic so straight talking is better then subtlety that he won't get. Having more than one approach means you can see which is working better with him. His logic might be quite far off, I find that with DS sometimes and he needs things explaining that are obvious to the rest of the world but he is completely oblivious too. Good luck OP!

ThisIsAlmostHalloween · 07/10/2024 16:04

mixedpeel · 07/10/2024 15:37

@OrlandointheWilderness : Why is it transwomen never dress like me!?! Jeans and a hoody, no make up and nails. No fancy hair etc. I would have far, far less of a hard time getting my head around it if a true reflection of womanhood was represented, but no. It's always a stereotype. A bit of a strange one in this case too I'm afraid.

Some transwomen dress exactly as you describe, jeans and a hoody, no make-up etc. Maybe you just don’t notice them?

Because they just look like men with ponytails?

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/10/2024 16:05

Some transwomen dress exactly as you describe, jeans and a hoody, no make-up etc. Maybe you just don’t notice them?

You're right, I wouldn't really notice men dressed as men, it wouldn't stand out.

Myalternate · 07/10/2024 16:13

Men that think they’re women are rejecting their authentic sex. Why?

randoname · 07/10/2024 16:13

This reply has been deleted

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Velvetcupcakes · 07/10/2024 16:14

I’m so sorry OP. I have two autistic sons your age and remember a mumsnetter named AutismProf doing an AMA several months ago. If I recall correctly she diagnoses autism in her line of work. She found the explosion of autistic young people coming out as trans worrying (in that there is definite confusion around not fitting in, especially in the black and white thinking of the autism community).

Ohhbaby · 07/10/2024 16:21

Oh I'd let his siblings be honest with him.
Don't tell them to spare his feelings etc.
That's what siblings are there for.
His siblings should be allowed to say what they feel to him

Ohhbaby · 07/10/2024 16:24

A lot of these behaviours scream 'i want attention'.
It's a desperate call for help imo

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 07/10/2024 16:24

You can't really control the feelings of DC's siblings, but you can ask them to respect their choices and not be unpleasant, even if they are angry.

///

There needs to be understanding on both sides here though ... siblings have apparently "lost" the brother they have always known and will need to grieve ... this is not always a measured or calm thing to do especially for youngsters. This coming out has ripple effects and as much as OP and her family will do the best they can to help this process along the child concerned must accept it will take time and be bumpy at moments.

OP ... sounds like you're doing well all things considered, what a huge shock.

As an aside though, why is it that for so many transwomen, expressing this is always as a caricature of women? I mean, what biological women actually dress like this?

Bigcat25 · 07/10/2024 16:24

I think you have to accept him. He hasn't had time to get together a wardrobe and find things that fit. The clothes/make-up/mannerisms might evolve with time.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 16:24

Grammarnut · 07/10/2024 14:23

It would help not to accept this non-scientific nonsense and let the DS's brother and sisters have it out with him. He is aping women in a derisive way, whether he realises this or not, and needs to be challenged. Gender is a social construct. Sex is binary and immutable.

Sex is binary and immutable for most people, and it is possible to say that a physically and physiologically normal man can't become a woman without dismissing the lives of the small but real group with real intersex conditions.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 07/10/2024 16:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 10:20

Absolutely don't gaslight your daughters. I would just say that their brother has the right to wear anything he likes but of course they don't need to go along with anything they are uncomfortable with.

I wouldn't raise it with people at the uni as it might backfire on you and/or your GC contacts there.

This

TurbulentPriest · 07/10/2024 16:27

Maybe one way of triggering a discussion and challenging the caricature is to treat your DC as an Edwardian lady to the letter. Lavender bags and tapestry sets for Christmas. Not allowed out without a bonnet and a chaperone. Ladylike sized portions at mealtimes, and no alcohol. And if/when DC objects, that’s your way in to ask what it means to be a woman and why is that desirable?

Lovelyview · 07/10/2024 16:31

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 16:24

Sex is binary and immutable for most people, and it is possible to say that a physically and physiologically normal man can't become a woman without dismissing the lives of the small but real group with real intersex conditions.

I don't want to get the thread off course but just to let you know people with 'Intersex' conditions are still either male or female. For more info:www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 07/10/2024 16:32

Bigcat25 · 07/10/2024 16:24

I think you have to accept him. He hasn't had time to get together a wardrobe and find things that fit. The clothes/make-up/mannerisms might evolve with time.

Really? They have known for a long time they "are female", lived in a household with three females, been surrounded in every day life by females and had access to shops selling contemporary female items of clothing and they come downstairs dressed like Dame Edna?

Confused
Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/10/2024 16:33

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/10/2024 16:05

Some transwomen dress exactly as you describe, jeans and a hoody, no make-up etc. Maybe you just don’t notice them?

You're right, I wouldn't really notice men dressed as men, it wouldn't stand out.

Well quite!!

OP I have a friend whose sibling is trans. It has been very difficult for her as their parents are not supportive so she feels she has to defend her brother (he’s not her sister) against them. She feels very conflicted as she’s been a victim of sexual assault so feels angry that her brother has assumed a female identity without having any real understanding of what it means in reality to be a woman. Her view is that he’s probably gay but afraid to say so to their very strict parents so she’s subsuming her own feelings about it.

all your DC are entitled to their differing feelings about this. Let them talk, don’t shut them down and with your eldest just reassure him that he’s loved and leave space for him to talk when he wants to