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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
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9
TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Ingenieur · 07/10/2024 17:03

I don't want to derail any more, but sex is always binary. It is defined by the potential to produce one of two gametes, and there are only two gametes.

When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

It is not ignorance or intolerance to suggest this.

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

MaidOfAle · 07/10/2024 17:10

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

This does not conflict with When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

Someone with Turner Syndrome has no capacity to produce gametes, yet is on a female developmental path, with partly-developed Mullerian duct (I can't spell the new name for that) and undeveloped Wolffian duct (I can't spell the new name for that either).

Even in the really really rare cases of XX-XY chimerism, which are so rare that individual cases get written up in medical journals, one developmental path will be dominant.

Needadvicefor · 07/10/2024 17:13

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

The number of true intersex people is low. Most trans, in my view, have other issues...

Ingenieur · 07/10/2024 17:13

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

You are seriously projecting with your O-Level statement. Actually producing the gametes that a person has the potential to produce is not relevant to the definition of sex.

But there are just to gametes, and no human has ever been demonstrated to produce both.

Please stop muddling the issue.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:13

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

Being unable to reproduce is not a third sex. And it doesn't mean that a person doesn't have a sex. There are only two sexes. It's your understanding that is flawed and ideological here. Nothing about this biological reality precludes support for people with disorders of sex development.

popeydokey · 07/10/2024 17:14

Intersex is totally irrelevant to the OP so, as frustrating as it is to see incorrect assertions on this thread, could we leave off the derailing?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:14

MaidOfAle · 07/10/2024 17:10

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

This does not conflict with When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

Someone with Turner Syndrome has no capacity to produce gametes, yet is on a female developmental path, with partly-developed Mullerian duct (I can't spell the new name for that) and undeveloped Wolffian duct (I can't spell the new name for that either).

Even in the really really rare cases of XX-XY chimerism, which are so rare that individual cases get written up in medical journals, one developmental path will be dominant.

Edited

What about testicular feminisation syndrome then? Definitely on a path to have mainly female phenotype, and no prospect at all of becoming a fertile male. Should she be labelled a man on some half-baked "law of nature" that her chromosomes make her "male"?

Needadvicefor · 07/10/2024 17:15

The explosion of young trans is a manifestation of unhappiness and social media.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:16

Bit of a side issue here, but just to mention that this thread is an illustration of why (in line with a suggestion made in site Stuff the other day) it might be useful to have some sort of 'parent of gender-questioning child' topic where people could post asking how to support their child, but without having to feel trammelled by the particular framing that may be seen to be a default in the LGBT Children topic.
*A difficulty with posting for support in 'Feminism: Sex and gender discussions' is that - not at all unreasonably - this topic is viewed as a place for discussion, and the support element of the thread can get a little lost in the discursive element.

Yes, that's a very good point.

Name5 · 07/10/2024 17:16

@ExtremelyPrivate it was me who suggested a separate topic for gender questioning adult DC The issues are different to children who must be protected at all costs from irreversible proceedures. When my DC was at school the original board was very helpful.

Fwiw I did not ask for Reds post to be removed although she may think I did. I was on a work call and didn't even see it.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:16

The feeling of being invisible and 2nd Class to a male who is doing the 'Behold a Man Has Arrived' Meme when they do 'Behold I Have Become a Woman' is crushing.

It doesn't get any less or go away tbh.

MN just reinforced that feeling.

Don't let your daughters be in that position. Protect them from being pushed into that. Protect them and reassure them it's ok to be angry. It's ok to be up. It's ok to have their own feelings and this in no way makes them 'bad'. They should feel or be made to feel guilty.

They have enough to deal with the 'twisted mirror syndrome' (the one the OP herself describes in her posts). If they look like their brother, it'll be even harder for them especially at that time of life when appearance is so important to teenage girls.

Honestly it's really depressing.

I just feel like I've been kicked in the teeth for stating truth and explaining how it affected me.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:17

Name5 · 07/10/2024 17:16

@ExtremelyPrivate it was me who suggested a separate topic for gender questioning adult DC The issues are different to children who must be protected at all costs from irreversible proceedures. When my DC was at school the original board was very helpful.

Fwiw I did not ask for Reds post to be removed although she may think I did. I was on a work call and didn't even see it.

I didn't even know you were on the thread. I don't know or care who reported it. It's irrelevant.

I'm disappointed in MN.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:19

@RedToothBrush Flowers you are a well known poster, and some people, possibly not even posting, would probably rather your voice is silenced.

Maddy70 · 07/10/2024 17:20

I'm surprised you didn't have a discussion about why he had chosen that look.
Now is the time for open and honest conversation

Maddy70 · 07/10/2024 17:20

twomanyfrogsinabox · 07/10/2024 11:04

I would have pointed out he needs a bit more practise with makeup and choosing dresses. I would have tried to tidy him up a bit before he went out, as you would if he was dressed stupidly as a boy.

This

TransSister · 07/10/2024 17:24

My 51 year old brother has spent the last 18 months becoming his apparently authentic trans woman self. He says he has always felt like this.
As a sibling I struggle with this having been the butt of his sexist banter for all of those years. And witness to the casual hetrosexual sex plus two long term hetro relationships.
I do find his recent announcement as Emperor's new clothes. He's had mental health issues, problems with addiction since teens. Never tackled with sensible lifestyle choices just lurching from quick fix to medication to self medicating. The whooping doses of off the record HRT are just a continuation of this. It hass made him happier but it's riddled with anxiety, and he regularly still goes on weekend drinking benders
My mum has narcissistic traits, this is all confusing, but also a rich seam of attention grabbing. I would have kept it more low key to ease a path back.
I have decided my boundaries are that although I am always pleased to hear about his life, I can not be part of his current journey/special interest in the same way that I wasn't part of his football/fruit salad/motorcycle maintenance world. It's not my thing. So I won't be shopping or affirming his new journey. My mother has taken a different approach.
At the last meeting with my teens he referred to unnecessarily and off topic to sanitary protection. So from now on, I'm not letting him anywhere near my kids, I suspect as an older man he has been quick to devour the stranger corners of trans on the internet. I won't be a part of that and I worry that younger people are approaching from a different angle and yet caught under the same umbrella.

I really feel for all the families of trans people, so hard to know how to approach this.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/10/2024 17:29

Indeed it is not relevant to the OP's problem. It is relevant to the faith-based statement by PP I was replying to that "sex is always binary". It smacks of intolerance and ignorance. I am not aiming to support the trans movement, just to stop people misusing science to support dogmatic social views when it doesn't.

How is it intolerant and ignorant? There are only two sexes, male and female, there are only two gametes. Sex IS binary. That's not a faith based statement. It is reality.

I suggest you read the below and stop suggesting sex isn't binary.

https://dsdfamilies.org/application/files/9116/3519/2768/July20211_schools.pdf

Avoid resources that refer to "intersex" as a third sex category. This is inaccurate and stigmatising and could be very distressing for children with DSD. It is also not inline with schools' responsibility to teach UK equality law accurately to pupils.

Skyrainlight · 07/10/2024 17:29

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:04

I have just asked MNHQ for an explanation of why it was deleted.

I don't get it.

I have said for a long time that families and siblings are written out of this narrative and there's a huge gap of knowledge and stigma about what it's really like. We are not allowed to speak about how it affects us.

I said that ultimately the OP has to be mindful of the degree to which she can support, whether it's wanted, how she might never be able to and how there is a cult like problem with a lot of it and it's often excuses unacceptable behaviour.

I said the degree of militancy would affect the way in which the OP would respond.

And yes, it does come down to that. And yes it's like a grenade going off in a family.

This is frustrating.

I'm sorry your post got deleted. I would have loved to read it. So much for freedom of speech. I agree, it seems the narrative is always on the trans person and no one else in family, society, anywhere is allowed to have any feelings themselves. Even on this post OP asks how to help siblings and majority of answers are how to react to the trans person.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:19

@RedToothBrush Flowers you are a well known poster, and some people, possibly not even posting, would probably rather your voice is silenced.

It clearly hits a nerve doesn't it.

The narrative that it families that don't do enough and reject their trans family member is one which underpins the victimhood.

The fact that advice being given out by trans charities a few years ago, said that trans people frequently reject their family because they remind them of the past and may seek to lash out at family due to unresolved anger and frustration as part of the reality of never being able to change sex isn't so palatable.

Neither is the fact the Beaumont Society did a survey amongst their own members which found abnormally high levels of psychological distress in the wives of men who transitioned. This is a group who are focused on supporting trans people not partners. The families of those who transition are silent because of stigma, because they feel guilty, because they worry about judgement and being shamed, because they are struggling with their own psychological needs (hey let's not forget high rates of autism amongst trans people and what that also might mean for their family members cos hey genetics). But we aren't allowed to talk about the impact on families.

We also aren't allowed to talk about identity formation and identity being multi faceted and relational and family identity being one of the most important to people, particularly children.

And we are supposed to ignore the militancy and the cultlike behaviour imposed on others in these demands placed on families.

Yeah. Let's all play happy families and pretend we are all ok when we really really aren't.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:41

This is a man who is 19. He's autistic and very vulnerable.

But that doesn't give him licence to impose his beliefs on others. The OP only has a limited amount she can influence him. He can make choices and is free to remove himself from the situation if he doesn't like it. The other kids are too young to do that.

They are entitled to their WORIADS beliefs. They do not have to use pronouns and names they are uncomfortable with and that shouldn't be enforced or punished (including with emotional blackmail or manipulation). They conversely can't take the piss nor be abusive about their brother's identity.

And given the situation the OP finds herself in, that should really be the house ground rules and boundaries to balance all of those in the house.

The other kids are allowed to be upset about this. It's a huge thing. It has an impact in a way that being gay does not. (I think we have established these impacts enough with sport and crime and rape crisis centres by this point). Their brother is not the same person they've always been - the whole point is a declaration of being trans is a request to be treated differently. Otherwise what's the actual fucking point of transition?!

PrettyPickle · 07/10/2024 17:44

Waitingfordoggo · 07/10/2024 14:42

This could be a phase, an attempt to get a reaction out of you all or it could be the real thing.

What do you mean by ‘the real thing’ @PrettyPickle? There is no situation in which a male is actually a woman.

If he feels he wants to face life as a woman and its not just confusion, then he needs to be supported and not alienated. He can never biologically be a woman but he can live as a woman if he so wishes. Is that really going to harm anyone??? He needs support for the sake of his mental health, he needs to be able to talk about his feelings without judgement and he needs proper guidance. Patience and compassion is needed now.

Chersfrozenface · 07/10/2024 17:47

PrettyPickle · 07/10/2024 17:44

If he feels he wants to face life as a woman and its not just confusion, then he needs to be supported and not alienated. He can never biologically be a woman but he can live as a woman if he so wishes. Is that really going to harm anyone??? He needs support for the sake of his mental health, he needs to be able to talk about his feelings without judgement and he needs proper guidance. Patience and compassion is needed now.

Define "living as a woman".

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:52

PrettyPickle · 07/10/2024 17:44

If he feels he wants to face life as a woman and its not just confusion, then he needs to be supported and not alienated. He can never biologically be a woman but he can live as a woman if he so wishes. Is that really going to harm anyone??? He needs support for the sake of his mental health, he needs to be able to talk about his feelings without judgement and he needs proper guidance. Patience and compassion is needed now.

This is a pile of sexist gibbish.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:56

PrettyPickle · 07/10/2024 17:44

If he feels he wants to face life as a woman and its not just confusion, then he needs to be supported and not alienated. He can never biologically be a woman but he can live as a woman if he so wishes. Is that really going to harm anyone??? He needs support for the sake of his mental health, he needs to be able to talk about his feelings without judgement and he needs proper guidance. Patience and compassion is needed now.

Yes it does harm others.

That's kinda the problem.

MagpiePi · 07/10/2024 17:57

mixedpeel · 07/10/2024 15:37

@OrlandointheWilderness : Why is it transwomen never dress like me!?! Jeans and a hoody, no make up and nails. No fancy hair etc. I would have far, far less of a hard time getting my head around it if a true reflection of womanhood was represented, but no. It's always a stereotype. A bit of a strange one in this case too I'm afraid.

Some transwomen dress exactly as you describe, jeans and a hoody, no make-up etc. Maybe you just don’t notice them?

Maybe its because they are just men dressed in a neutral way rather than men dressed as a ridiculous parody of a woman?