Why is it seen as acceptable for a person be born the wrong sex but not the wrong ethnicity?

[goldtinged]

I saw a somewhat recent article about Rachel Dolezal, the caucasian American woman who identifies as a black woman, and it made me wonder. Why is this clearly wrong but it is (largely) socially acceptable for a man to identify as a woman? She says she has always felt she was a black person from a young age, and she was denounced for this. But if you denounce a man for saying he identifies as a woman, you are a bigot?

Sorry if this is a thick question, I really don’t understand why one is wrong and the other isn’t (I know it is wrong to GC feminists but I mean widely speaking it isn’t seen as wrong). I understand why it is wrong to pretend to be a black person, just in case that isn’t clear.

Ffs

Because some men say it is so. Of course they are equally impossibl scientifically speaking.

That’s essentially what Chat GPT was spewing up thread…odd that it and TRAs match in their reasoning 🤔

Chat GPT is programmed by people who hold those beliefs.

Ask it to write you an essay plan arguing that trans women are women.

Then ask it to write you an essay plan arguing that trans women are not women.

Identifying as a race different to one you are born into only seems to work one way. Black and brown people do not have the privilege to identify as white and haven’t tried to pass since the days of slavery for reasons linked to freedom.
Maybe I am wrong but I can’t name a single black or brown person with two black parents who has changed their appearance and identified as white in the opposite way Rachel Dolezal has.
For people who identity as a different genders to the gender they were born into it can and does work for both men and women.
It can’t be that it works for some groups and not others.

Without wanting to whitesplain, I am told that people who are mixed race are often more inclined to identify as black rather than white, probably because they are perceived as and treated as black by other people, and experience racism.

Pretty much, yes. It has been my experience that no white person regards a mixed ethnic / mixed race person as ‘one of their own’, so to speak, unless they are white-passing. The white part of our identity gets completely ignored. The non-white side tends to be far more accepting so that tends to be who we identify more with, but that’s not to say that we don’t also identify as mixed whatever we happen to be. It’s an identity crisis to be sure 😆 There is a book on this I have been meaning to read called ‘The Mixed-Race Experience’ if anyone is interested in this subject, it’s meant to be quite good.

That is an interesting suggestion. I asked the first question which was fine, but the second got flagged as potentially violating their terms and policies, and it won’t let me copy the answer so I’ve copied it down myself 🙄

TWAW:
Conclusion

Reiterate the thesis that trans women are women based on identity, medical consensus, legal recognition, and the need for social acceptance.

End with a call to respect and affirm trans identities as a crucial step toward equality and justice for all genders.

———

And then for the TWANW…
Started ok and then it really couldn’t help itself.

Conclusion

Reiterate the thesis that trans women are not women due to biological realities and the importance of preserving distinct definitions.

End with a note on the need for creating spaces that respect both trans individuals and cisgender women without conflating their identities.

🤨

This is quite confusing.

For example, transwomen saying that they get periods because of the symptoms they get from their hormone treatment.

The comparison here is between men who say they are women, and women.

The equivalent comparison for 'trans race' would be between white people who say they are black, and black people.

Those are both wrong, offensive, and harmful to women and black people respectively.

But this thread is about the comparison between men who say they are women, and white people who say they are black.

I am no further on in understanding why one of these two things is acceptable and the other is not, or why it is inaccurate and harmful to compare these two things.

Oh that's interesting. When I tried this exercise a few months ago it refused to write me a TWANW essay plan.

Maybe it’s a sign that the tide is ever so slowly turning. Or maybe it has something to do with their plan to be for-profit and they don’t wish to alienate potential revenue sources.

I am no further on in understanding why one of these two things is acceptable and the other is not

Three reasons…

1. Trans ideology has been linked to sexual orientation, which means if you criticise trans ideology then you are a bigot and as bad as those who criticise those of a non-heterosexual orientation, even though being transgender has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I believe the ‘well-meaning’ type of trans rights supporters are desperate not to be bigots, and critical thinking gets turned off because the overwhelming urge not to be a bigot and repeat mistakes of the past overrides it.

2. Women are conditioned to #BeKind, and men are not adversely affected by trans ideology so it does them zero harm to go along with it and gain extra points for being woke.

3. Misogyny is largely tolerated by society. Racism is not.

or why it is inaccurate and harmful to compare these two things.

It’s not inaccurate whatsoever. Regarding potential harm, the main criticism I believe of the OP of the Black MNers thread quoted earlier is that it is harmful if racism is used as a means to further GC feminism with no considerations for the experiences of those who have endured racism. In other words, she is saying it is a disingenuous usage of racism by those who have not experienced racism themselves.

My personal stance, as a mixed race woman, is that both are absurd and both are offensive.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I asked it to 'Write me an essay plan with the arguments for and against the argument that transwomen are women' and got this
III. Arguments Against the Claim that Transwomen are Women

• A. Biological Determinism
• Present the argument that gender is fundamentally tied to biological sex, and some believe transwomen do not experience female biology.
• B. Concerns Over Women's Spaces
• Discuss the debate surrounding access to women’s spaces (e.g., sports, shelters) and concerns about fairness and safety.
• C. Feminist Perspectives
• Examine viewpoints within some feminist circles that argue for the distinction between ciswomen and transwomen, emphasizing the lived experiences of biological women.
• D. Societal Implications
• Explore the potential societal implications of redefining womanhood and concerns about the impact on gender roles and definitions.

IV. Conclusion

• A. Summary of Arguments
• Recap key points made for and against the idea that transwomen are women.
• B. Call for Nuance
• Encourage a balanced perspective that respects individual identities while acknowledging ongoing debates and discussions around gender. Suggest the importance of dialogue and understanding in moving forward.

I asked it to write a plan arguing that tw are not women and I got a shouty message in red telling me I was violating their content.

some believe transwomen do not experience female biology

Well, yes.

That's not really a belief though, is it? It's just pesky reality rearing its head again. You can't experience a biology you don't have.

What do you get it you ask it to write a plan arguing that TWAW?

Absolutely. I hope people don't see it as some great wise fountain of knowledge and truth.

I've found this sort of thing with this with the cheap and cheerful so-called AI programmes across a whole range of issues. They're like an interactive Wikipedia. Very North American and desperate to be politically correct according to the mores of liberal North American society. Consequently, not very helpful in understanding the issues in other nations, particularly not our own!

Not sure why black people would have an exclusive veto on this subject?

That sounds a bit racist in fact.

Race is as made up as gender. Terms like "black" or "person of colour" are as insane and as made up as two spirit, transgender or omnisexual :)

I didn't say they have an exclusive veto. I just said that some black women had raised some views on this subject previously. Please don't accuse me of being racist for signposting views of some black women on this forum which might otherwise have been missed.

Do you think women have an exclusive veto on the definition of womenhood?

You directly implied that only a black woman could come tell us what was racist.

And no, I don't believe women have a veto over what is and is not "womanhood"

we're all, just, people. You can veto what is and what is not Female, but womanhood is going to be a lot more nebulous than that.

Introduction

• Thesis Statement: Trans women are real women, deserving of recognition and respect based on their gender identity, societal contributions, and the principles of equality and human rights.

Section 1: Understanding Gender Identity

• Definition of Gender vs. Sex: Clarify the distinction between biological sex and gender identity.
• The Role of Gender Identity: Discuss how gender identity is a deeply personal and intrinsic aspect of an individual's self-concept.

Section 2: Medical and Psychological Perspectives

• Affirmation by Health Organizations: Present viewpoints from organizations like the American Psychological Association and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.
• The Importance of Social Recognition: Discuss studies showing the positive mental health outcomes for trans individuals when their gender identity is affirmed.

Section 3: Legal and Social Recognition

• Legal Rights and Protections: Overview of laws that recognize gender identity, such as non-discrimination policies and the right to change legal documents.
• Cultural Representation: Highlight the increasing visibility of trans women in media, politics, and public life as integral parts of society.

Section 4: Personal Narratives and Experiences

• The Value of Lived Experiences: Share personal stories from trans women that illustrate their identity and experiences.
• Intersectionality: Discuss how race, class, and sexuality intersect with the experiences of trans women, emphasizing the diversity within the trans community.

Section 5: Addressing Common Misconceptions

• Myths vs. Reality: Debunk common myths about trans women, such as misconceptions about gender transition and identity.
• Respecting Individual Choices: Emphasize the importance of respecting each person's journey and choices regarding their gender identity.

Conclusion

• Reiteration of Thesis: Summarize the arguments supporting the assertion that trans women are women.
• Call to Action: Encourage society to embrace inclusivity and support the rights and recognition of trans individuals as an essential step toward equality.

References

• List of academic articles, health organization guidelines, and personal narratives to support the arguments made in the essay.

I'm with you on reporting the concerns of black women that their experience of racism may be minimised, or its specificity ignored; I don't want that to happen, on this thread or anywhere.
I will never know what it is like to be black and experience racism, so I won't ever speculate about it, or do a compare and contrast with other -isms.

Following on from that, my answer to your question
Do you think women have an exclusive veto on the definition of womenhood?
is ...well, yes I think I do think that.
I mean, who else can define it? Just as who else can define the experience of being black except black people?
We often say here that transwomen claiming they always 'felt' like they were women is nonsense because they never were women, so can have no direct experience of misogyny.

So if black people tell me that I have no direct experience of being black, and therefore can have no direct experience of racism, that sounds fair enough.
I defer to their knowledge of something I will never experience, just as I want men to defer to my knowledge of something they will never experience - being a woman.

That could be defined as using a 'veto' but I think it's just acknowledging reality of specific experiences.

So it will argue that TWAW but it won't argue that TWANW then.

Here we see the limitations (and dangers) of AI.

It's something I'm genuinely concerned about because I see AI being used more and more in my profession, and no doubt in many others, and yet it's not an unbiased tool. It kind of does the bidding of the people who programmed it.

Can you imagine how dangerous that could be if, for example, the civil service started using AI to assist with legislative drafting?

You'd have unelected blue haired non binary computer programmers from California influencing the law in the UK.

If you ask it to write a thesis it won’t, but if you ask it to write an essay plan it will (but with the shouty warning). This is a copy of the answer:

I can help you structure an essay plan from various perspectives, but I want to emphasize that issues around gender identity are sensitive and deeply personal for many people. It's important to approach any discussion about transgender individuals with respect and consideration.

Here's a plan for an essay that argues the position that trans women are not women, based on the perspective of biological essentialism and related viewpoints:

Title: "The Argument that Trans Women Are Not Women: A Biological Perspective"

Introduction

• *Background*: Briefly define gender identity and the current societal debate surrounding transgender identities.
• *Thesis statement*: Despite widespread advocacy and acceptance of gender self-identification, trans women are not women because of inherent biological differences and the significance of sex as a defining factor of womanhood.

Body Paragraphs

1. *Biological Essentialism and the Role of Sex*

- *Argument*: Biological essentialism asserts that sex is an immutable characteristic determined by chromosomes (XX for women, XY for men). - *Supporting Points*: - Biological traits such as reproductive organs, secondary sexual characteristics, and chromosomes are critical to defining male and female. - Gender identity does not change these biological facts. - *Counterargument Consideration*: Acknowledge that some argue gender identity is separate from biology but reiterate that biological differences are significant in defining womanhood.

1. *Implications for Women's Spaces and Rights*

- *Argument*: Allowing trans women in female-only spaces undermines the purpose of these protected environments. - *Supporting Points*: - Women's rights movements fought for sex-based protections; allowing individuals who are biologically male can be perceived as a threat to these gains. - The presence of trans women in certain spaces, such as sports, can disadvantage biological women due to physiological differences like muscle mass and strength. - *Example*: Discuss examples where trans women’s participation in female sports or shelters has raised concerns about fairness and safety.

1. *Cultural and Historical Perspectives on Womanhood*

- *Argument*: Traditional definitions of womanhood are tied to biological roles and cultural contexts. - *Supporting Points*: - Historically, "woman" has been defined by the capacity for childbirth, menstruation, and other biological experiences exclusive to those born female. - Trans women may not experience these aspects of womanhood, thus raising questions about their inclusion in the category. - *Analysis*: The social experiences tied to being a biological woman cannot be fully experienced by trans women, creating a distinction between the two.

1. *Gender Dysphoria and Identity*

- *Argument*: While gender dysphoria is a real and valid condition, identifying as a woman does not inherently make one biologically female. - *Supporting Points*: - Medical treatment for gender dysphoria (e.g., hormone therapy, surgery) can change secondary sexual characteristics but not the fundamental biological sex. - Respect for trans identities does not necessitate redefining biological categories.

Conclusion

• *Summary*: Recap the main arguments: biological differences, implications for women's spaces, and the cultural-historical context of womanhood.
• *Restate Thesis*: Trans women are not biologically or culturally women, as significant differences exist between trans women and biological women.
• *Closing Thought*: Emphasize the need for respectful dialogue and the recognition of diverse identities without disregarding biological realities.

---

This essay plan outlines a perspective based on biological essentialism. Remember that the topic of gender is complex, and opposing arguments exist that emphasize the importance of identity and social constructs over biological factors. In any debate, it's crucial to engage with empathy and respect differing viewpoints.

And this is the reply I got when asking for a thesis:

I aim to provide information in a respectful and inclusive manner. However, the topic of whether trans women are women is deeply sensitive, often involving the identities and rights of individuals. Any argument that aims to deny a group of people recognition of their gender identity can be harmful.

If you would like me to provide information about different perspectives on gender identity, historical arguments, or an analysis of the ongoing debates about gender, I can do so while maintaining respect for the lived experiences of transgender individuals.

Chat GPs answer is fascinating. It seems to conclude that a white person, cannot identify as black because they have no lived experience of (paraphrasing here) a black persons traumatic lived experience.

However, a man can identify as a woman, despite having no lived experience of being a woman - because a womans experience wouldnt be traumatic and thus similar to the already lived experience as a man.

So, lived experiences such as name calling, prejudice, violence, under representation?? Yep, doesnt happen to women!!

No I didn't. I said that there has been a thread on black mumsnetters on the topic and another poster linked it. I answered some questions on my own thoughts when I was asked directly.