Moira Deeming defamation trial - Thread 2 from Australia

[TheSandgroper]

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5167282-in-australia-moira-deeming-defamation-trial-now-on?page=40&reply=138525746

Tribunal Tweets Substack https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/moira-deeming-v-john-pesutto-a-case?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share. Thanks to @BezMills

Thanks to everyone on thread 1. I am pleased it generated such interest and conversations. I have learnt a lot from many very bright women.

He makes comments like:

"a third question I'm interested in today regardless of whether they'd be let in, why would the Neo-Nazi group want to show up to a let women speak event in the first place?"

and

"as anyone who pays attention to Keane's events will know the Australian National Socialist movement turning up at the Melbourne event is not a one-off members of far-right group standing up and even getting to speak at Keane's events is a regular occurrence."

Soo.... we have addressed rather thoroughly this 'third question'. This person did not do their research either, just makes this very lazy statement.

and then brings in another false statement.

No. As far as I know, one ex-proud boy spoke in Miami. He was out of the group by the time he spoke and he had denounced them. I also challenge any person who wants to make him the proverbial stick to beat women up with to show us exactly what that man said that was a 'far right' opinion at the speech and what they disagree with that the man said.

ONE man. Yet this person in this video states it is a 'regular occurrence'. Just like a poster has tried to make one man into more and doubled down that Neo-nazis support feminists despite the visual evidence and the statements after the event by the fucking Neo-nazis to be clear they don't support feminists.

This person points out what they think is transphobic.

Attempts to leverage in historic homophobia as an equivalence (absolutely nothing new in that false equivalence).

Then points this out:

"By protecting women's rights she primarily means by excluding trans people from what she considers to be women's spaces. Spaces like women's
restrooms changing rooms sports teams and the likes. Now I acknowledge that Keane wouldn't accept me saying trans people here. She would say she's motivated by keeping men out of women's spaces. But as we'll see she doesn't really mean men, she does mean trans people and something else to remember here is that by protecting women's rights she actually means just her personal interpretation of This One Singular right"

What this person is describing is single sex spaces and they are dishonestly portraying this as 'transphobic'. What this male individual is doing is attempting to portray these beliefs as also seemingly being unusual. They are not unusual.

The video goes on to discuss now how all other feminists are just using 'good optics' to try and portray themselves as being reasonable.

"they're aware of the need for good Optics. They want to be seen to have won the argument legitimately. They work very hard to convey that they're not motivated by bigotry. They're not motivated by transphobia. They just have a few concerns as a political strategy. They will be accepting of a minority of
trans people they will often name and gender trans people correctly for instance"

So, this person absolutely has a very prejudiced view about a group of women who are seeking to find solutions for where their rights conflict with a group of male people who demand access to those rights.

If Shaun is your back you are on a hiding to nowhere on this board and rightly so otherwise what are the rest of us doing here

I wouldn't say im "convinced by him" - he's done his research and so it's interesting to see the facts. Even the bits where I strongly disagree with his logic (I.e. his representation of GC feminists) I can see why he's saying what he says.

He made a very good point about Nazis - that fundamentally noone platforms them so if they think they can get a platform they will take advantage of it.

It did leave me wondering about KJKs ongoing friendship with someone who had sex with a minor in her care in the US (Kaeley Triller) and whether or not MD would find it OK if people called KJK a paedophile apologist?

I mean this is a video where a male person takes any opportunity to denigrate women who disagree with him:

"let women speak events attract lonely people who don't really get what's going on but just want someone to talk to a conspiracy theorist types who want to rant about vaccines or whatever".

and

"Kelly Jay Keene can't play nice with the other transphobes"

This YouTuber really doesn't like women. They go on a rant about Julie Bindel & Helen Joyce saying that it was false to say that the Neo-nazis were there supporting the women. And tries to then make a point that Julie Bindel must be somehow influenced by KJK or, was it JK Rowling who is influencing all the women to support each other. Rather than actually seeking to understand the very simple fact.

That the accusations of the Nazi party supporting women in Melbourne was so ludicrous that even Julie Bindel who has never held back in pointing out KJK's flaws has defended her and all the other women in attendance.

And also has this to say about 'silent minorities':

"There isn't a silent majority just waiting for the opportunity to speak up."

And yet, there is now numerous polls for the UK that actually DO show people are fearful of speaking up. I am more than happy to post links to at least 2 that I have stashed away. So, this is not based on reality, this is based on what this person wishes to believe and tell others.

"because whatever concern might exist in the silent majority about things like puberty blockers or women's sports, they're also so concerned about neo-nazis opposition to trans rights"

Most people in the UK have little idea about Neo-nazis. As with in Australia although those Melbourne nazis have been in the news a bit.

However, many now know about puberty blockers and/or women's sports. So again, this person is only ever feeding back misinformation to people who seem very desperate to hate one woman in particular, but also any feminist who believes there is a conflict with the rights of female people and that of a group of male people who are making demands to access those rights.

This person then launches into discussing infighting within the movement, goes back again to how troublesome the format of an open mic event is. Tries again to point out 'guilt by association' over and over. No evidence. Just 'look a Proud Boy turned up in Miami'!!

Eh? I'd never heard of him before, found him via Google. As I say, it's the downside of asking loads of questions.
Interestingly being told to "educate myself" was also how I found myself becoming GC. There's a risk if you dismiss reasonable points with "go and do your research" people are going to find the opposite of what you told them to.

helle when you say "no evidence", it makes my curious 1) what you want evidence of? And 2) what would be acceptable evidence to you?

This video is full of misrepresentations, small snippets of things said taken out of context.

It even tried to again use the speech about the big lie that keeps getting used.

“That was a speaker at a let women speak event in Newcastle there quoting Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. Now it should be noted here that when Hitler wrote about the concept of the big lie he didn't say, ’ we the Nazis are going to do the big lie to attack Jewish people.’ He claimed that Jewish people were telling a big lie in particular he was claiming that Jewish people were lying about the reasons that Germany lost the first world war. By citing Adolf Hitler's use of the big lie Theory, instead of say anyone else who isn't actually Adolf Hitler's use of the Big Life Theory, the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.”

Well, this is the speaker that this YouTuber is referring to.

Let Women Speak - Newcastle - Part 2 time 8.59
https://www.youtube.com/live/vgxjSGeCE4Q

I would expect this YouTuber to point out what that speech was about. It was discussing a concept such as how a lie that is so inconceivable that normal people cannot believe it is a lie. That is what she did.

And she did it to highlight how society has been influenced to repeat a mantra that males can ever be considered 'women'.

Should this propaganda tool never be discussed because to do so 'invokes' Hitler some how?

Was she 'quoting' or was she pointing out the propaganda tool that she believes has been used?

I will just repost this.

It is a bit of a strange thing to reference something from Mein Kampf in a speech. It definitely causes eyebrows to be raised. Not sure it's the example I would have chosen.

The Let Women Speak Melbourne event was a shit show.

The media went heavy on three things, the next day.

1. Nazis were there supporting LWS. (They were not. They were there doing their own Nazi thing of marching, and saluting.)
2. Moira Deeming being at the event, and how dare she be associating with Nazis. It was made very clear that the Liberal party was not supporting her about this issue. She has since left the party.
3. They said the rally had been anti-trans. While that often is a topic at LWS sessions, it is never the only topic.

Of course Nazis provide clicks. Women not getting to speak provide clicks. The press around this has been disgraceful.

Sorry, there was one other bit of news. Lidia Thorpe, one of our indigenous politicians, tried to interrupt the rally. It had been raining. The ground was slippery.

As police tried to restrain her from flapping the indigenous flag at KJK, she fell over. She would then not let the police help her up, and crawled away, through the mud.

She later accused them of assaulting her.

“Sorry, there was one other bit of news. Lidia Thorpe, one of our indigenous politicians, tried to interrupt the rally. It had been raining. The ground was slippery.

As police tried to restrain her from flapping the indigenous flag at KJK, she fell over. She would then not let the police help her up, and crawled away, through the mud.

She later accused them of assaulting her.”

I think this was the Canberra event.

I would have liked to hear a well thought out speech by Lidia Thorpe. It would have been interesting.

Lidia Thorpe accused the police of “pulverising” her.

She has said some interesting things in the past.

She was clearly just looking for attention, in this case.

My mistake. Thorpe was at the Canberra event.

She could have spoken at that event, if she had wanted to. It was called Let Women Speak, after all.

She chose instead to run at KJK and scream that she wasn’t wanted here.

'I would expect this YouTuber to point out what that speech was about. It was discussing a concept such as how a lie that is so inconceivable that normal people cannot believe it is a lie. That is what she did.'
'And she did it to highlight how society has been influenced to repeat a mantra that males can ever be considered 'women'.'

You mean, she used a historical text to point something out that has happened in the past in order to try and stop it happening in the future?

Wow, how strange. Very odd. Totally bizarre. A woman being able to read and make connections and then formulate a response all on her own. Crikey.

I know. Right?

And yet.... that YouTuber says:

"By citing Adolf Hitler's use of the big lie Theory, instead of say anyone else who isn't actually Adolf Hitler's use of the Big Life Theory, the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.”

err... no... she was talking about how propaganda works and how it has been used to convince people they have to support someone's philosophical belief as being objective material reality.

But hey.... Shaun gives really really excellent insights, yeah?

She was clearly just looking for attention, in this case.

This is a strange thing to say about a woman who was treated roughly by police

I think it was clarified that the Nazi Group were there for the women’s group that were protesting against paedophiles. That is why they had they had the ‘Destroy Paedo Freaks’ banner. They were not in any part, shape or form related to the LWS group.

Their banner does throw up something though. The Nazi group were allegedly ‘supporting’ the women who were holding a rally against certain paedophiles or paedophilia.

So taking the way you’re using the smear by association;

(a) If you condemn paedophilia, then you agree with the ‘Nazi’ group on that issue, although this entails being labelled a Nazi (or Nazi sympathiser).

Conversely, (b) in order not to be labelled a Nazi/Nazi sympathiser, would that mean you have to disagree with them. Even if that means condoning paedophilia.

So one has to be labelled either a Nazi (Nazi sympathiser) because you condemn paedophilia, or a paedophile apologist. You can’t be against Nazi ideology and against paedophilia. That’s where we are now with this bs.

Let me qualify that. The Nazi group said they were there for the women who were protesting against paedophiles/paedophilia.

Did you watch the incident in question?

It is easy to find.

She was shepherded away, after lashing out at Kellie-Jay Keen.

She fell back against the police.

They tried to hold her up, but the grass was wet, and muddy. She fell on the ground.

They tried to help her up, but she wouldn’t let them.

Instead she decided to crawl through the mud, towards the edge of the crowd.

She then told the media that the police had, and I quote, “pulverised” her.

I am not going to discuss this any further because, as was pointed out, this was at a Canberra event, not the Melbourne one.

cailleach No. The Nazi group said they were there for LWS.
I'm not calling anyone a nazi or a nazi apologiser so you are putting forward a false dichotomy. I think KJK doesn't do enough (or even anything) to stop nazis turning up at her events. I think its obvious nazis turning up would be controversial and I think Deeming was either naive or reckless not to realise they would turn up which would cause difficulties for her and the Liberal party.

Looks to me like the officer pulled her away/over.

Did you watch the incident in question?

It is easy to find.

She was shepherded away, after lashing out at Kellie-Jay Keen.

She fell back against the police.

They tried to hold her up, but the grass was wet, and muddy. She fell on the ground.

They tried to help her up, but she wouldn’t let them.

Instead she decided to crawl through the mud, towards the edge of the crowd.

I saw it.

How exactly could KJK have stopped the Nazi march in Melbourne? How?

How can KJK stop anyone from turning up to a public event in a public place? How?

How can KJK stop anyone who turns up to a public event in a public place, an event that is free, that is a public gathering, from photographing/videoing/streaming said event? How?

Maybe write nicely to the government and ask them not to issue the permits or to escort them around?