Family annihilators are usually husbands and fathers, now they are sons.

[IwantToRetire]

Not particularly wanting to discuss the recent case but I feel this is happening more often ie sons being the perpetrators.

A man has appeared in court charged with the murders of his mother and two siblings at a block of flats.

As Mr Prosper was led away from the dock, a man stood up to look him in the eye and said: “I still love you son, I know it’s not your fault ok.”

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2024-09-16/man-appears-in-court-charged-with-murders-of-woman-and-two-teenagers

'As Mr Prosper was led away from the dock, a man stood up to look him in the eye and said: “I still love you son, I know it’s not your fault ok.'

Christ that is beyond grim.
Whose fault is it then?

I'd be very wary of making any leap towards imagining a trend. The numbers are too small and I suspect that the incidents involving sons are far more likely to involve paranoid schizophrenia, rather than the pattern of anger, domestic abuse and overbearing control and self-absorption that tend to characterise husbands and fathers who commit this atrocity.

Regarding the comment in court from his father, this is what makes me wonder whether the killer was someone suffering very severely from schizophrenia and was not responsible for his actions.

We don't know, of course, but I really hope that if this is a desperately ill young man he is not hung out to dry on social media.

A 43 year old woman was murdered yesterday in her house in Belfast. Her 21 year old son has been arrested. He was just let out of prison recently and it has been reported that he said he would kill his mum. It happens quite often but yes does seem to be becoming more common.

yes, domestic abuse from sons to mothers is not uncommon

But the thread is about family annihilation. I don't think anyone would argue that domestic abuse from sons to mothers is uncommon

From what I've read in the past about family annihilators they have many simialar traits, behaviours and may also have been actual domestic violence abusers.

And is said to often occur when a man thinks he is going to lose his family, ie that same situation that women are warned about that the most dangerous time for them can be when they tell their abuser they are leaving.

So my maybe flip thread title doesn't mean those posting have to stick to that aspect.

And yes, as the shouted out comment in court implies, there could be a mental health issue, in which case why was he allowed anywhere near his family.

Its this whole arc of male violence. At home and in the streets.

Shooters both here in the UK and the USA are sometimes recorded as having first shot their mother and then gone on a shooting spree.

And incel culture feeding ideas of violence against women.

And although more men are killed by other men, than women killed by men, this doesn't stop the basic issue of male violence.

Whether prompted by mental health, wounded pride, machismo, misogyny, or whatever, what makes men then translate this into violence.

I believe there is absolutely a diagnosis behind this, whatever that may be. Schizophrenia, psychopathy or sociopathy.

The situation is going to get worse I fear when I look at all this horrific online Red Pill Incel sympathising crap. It is off the scale and the comments section is scary

Yep, Probably find that the son had severe MH issues which were not being treated

I don't know why we have to conjure up a MH issue
I can imagine a very similar dynamic to partner family annihilation
son is abusive, fears losing control for whatever reason, or possibly fears being found out, exerts control in the most final way possible.

The father saying 'its not your fault' could simply mean he shares the son's world view and reasoning.

@newtlover yes possibly. In my mind, I'm thinking that anyone who has a mentality as you describe has something going on biologically ( if that's the right catch all term) to make them go ahead and disobey all the rules of society and our self control drive.

The level of hate and loss of control to take it to this level is just not typical or say ' normal' surely. 😬

yes, I used to think like that but whilst abusive men are in the minority, its such a big minority that I don't think it can be ascribed to mental illness, especially if you see that kind of abuse as just a more extreme manifestation of the misogyny that is all around us day by day.

The dad could have egged the son on tbh, they could both be blaming the woman for breaking up the family.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/callous-brutal-son-who-killed-parents-with-sledgehammer-gets-life-in-jail-20240312-p5fbqv.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-66337147.amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n1z3e2wd9o.amp

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/drugged-up-son-kills-demon-9296076

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/son-admits-killing-bubbly-lovely-29269771

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/dawlish-mum-stabbed-death-mutilated-9282179

Bloody hell you're right OP, these are just a few of a seemingly endless list of them.

@newtlover yes that's a really scary thought. I've watched so many true crime programmes now to see how many of these situations are occurring. I'm also realising that alot of men are misogynist.

It's very hard to know what takes one from a misogynist dick to being capable of this.

I feel there's something wrong mentally when one has taken it to such a level of insanity that it will be so detrimental to their own well being ( e.g life in prison).

I wonder how many 'good men' are left under a regime where one is authorised to abuse, control and dominate women. ( Certain countries in the Middle East for example).

The 'counting dead women' twitter feed has a shocking amount of women killed by sons. Often the mothers are elderly.

@Ellerby83 why do mums get blamed for everything. I'm imagining in these cases the sons are blaming their mum for everything wrong in their life.

Bloody hell you're right OP, these are just a few of a seemingly endless list of them.

Just beginning to think there is nowhere women can feel confident they aren't lving with or meeting up a potentially violent man.

Or has given birth to one.

Maybe it has always been this bad, and it is only because we have access to a far wider range of information.

This rather grim report about the number of parents who face abuse from children goes out of its way not to say what % of parents are male or female, not does it indicate the sex of the children that are violent. What a waste of an opportunity to try and identify whether it is more likely to be sons than daughters of whether all teenagers go through a period of rage?

https://irp.cdn-website.com/fa6ebd65/files/uploaded/Child%20to%20Parent%20Abuse%20The%20impact%20during%20school%20holidays.pdf

@IwantToRetire that is very grim.

I read through the report you linked. There's alot of reference to unauthorised school absence in the families referenced. Yet, it doesn't explain how that links to the child being abusive and therefore why it's referenced.

I appreciate I will open up criticism here; I have a strong sense that a high proportion of parents in this study are mothers and that the child they talk about who is abusive and missing school is Neurodivergent.

I have a strong sense that a high proportion of parents in this study are mothers and that the child they talk about who is abusive and missing school is Neurodivergent.

That's why it so useless as a report.

Although good to make people aware that children can be the abusers not to provide any context, or potential shared factors, is just stupid.

I think this is most likely the crux of the matter, and has a couple of areas that need inspecting to figure out how to stop this:

1. how has this come about, that the child feels the mother is capable of causing the unsatisfactory life? Is it that they feel ill-equipped for success by the mother, unreasonably or otherwise? Or is it that they feel an unpleasant childhood or upbringing has been actively perpetrated on them by the mother? I imagine behind all this we have a range of scenarios all the way from an abusive mother, through inept mother, to unpleasant or unlikeable child, a child warped by the internet/echo chambers out to pure sociopathy in the child at the other end. This is tricky to break down as so much is going to be subjective - it's not like missing out on a summer holiday to Benidorm is an objective measure of an unsatisfactory childhood, for example
2. now assuming the child has somehow managed to form the idea that their life is unsatisfactory, significantly due to the mother, why does the child not simply leave the home context and succeed elsewhere? Why do they choose to move in ever closer and commit violence directly against the mother? We see direct, physical violence in these cases, not booby traps, not slow poisoning. Do we assume it is the man's natural response to physically remove a "threat" with violence, and therefore a man-only issue to be solved? Do we see the same attempts at physical violence from daughters against mothers? There's a lot of sex-based distinction around the value/cost of physical violence as a solution, which I think would be tricky to try and unpick into causative factors

Context: I suffered significant outcomes from an emotionally abusive mother, and even when I was trapped in my room with her in the doorway screaming at me, I never considered violence as the solution - I couldn't wait to leave the context (I'd given up on the word and concept of "home"), and did so the moment I could with a car and then permanently with a rental.

Any violence like this is predominantly affecting women and its definitely not "new".

However I think there at other factors at play such as massive cuts in community and statutory services for people struggling with mental health and addiction and its significantly harder for people to access mental health support now. Years of chronic underfunding is having a huge impact on the ability of people who are vulnerable in some ways to access services which can unfortunately also make them more volatile or unpredictable. When you then add in the fact that women are more likely to take on caretaking roles that also puts them directly in the firing line. So therefore to me it makes grim sense that we're seeing more and more of these types of cases because women are the ones picking up the slack.

@RoseHedgehog - so sorry that you had to endure this as a child, but brilliant that you were able to free yourself. \

This next isn't in anyway a response to that personal story but I can remember, some years ago now, when children who were being raised by a single mother felt themselves tainted by this.

ie not just the child but society implied the split from the father must be the mother's fault, and to make it worse the child felt they were made to live with someone that society looked down on.

So quite often this did mean lack of finances, but maybe worse being sneered at by school friends etc..

And this could mean at least in words, very angry and demeaning behaviour towards the mother.

It is only really more recently that people in public life who have had this experience, have gone out of their way to praise their mother for everything they did for them.

But I wonder if this hides the fact that many single mothers still face a hostile home environment, whilst trying to do their best.

@RoseHedgehog that's a really good summary. I understand entirely what you say.

I myself have been raised in a Narcissist/ sociopath family system. I'm not hurting or killing anyone anytime soon, that's for sure.

As you describe, there's a complex interplay of factors that lead to this it seems. I've spent a great deal of time researching all this based on my own experience and my concerns as a mum to a son. It's complicated. I became seriously unwell as an adult with multiple autoimmune conditions - yet my male sibling became another sociopath with abusive tendancies and no desire to take accountability. I realised that I had the capacity to be emotionally abusive on some level and after years of counselling I know I could never ever hurt a soul. I am empathic. I don't know why I didn't become a violent killer but sex and whatever goes on in being a male influences this significantly.

From what I read, each case is different like you say, but there's an interplay of nurture and nature. Men by nature just have a greater propensity for violence. Do they have a greater propensity for misogyny compared to women ( misandry), yes definitely. Then you might add in the environmental factors ( trauma, narc mother), some additional biology such as temperament ( difficult children are more susceptible to being turned into narcissists / sociopaths - which are primarily created as opposed to being born. )

You can also add the possible genetic nature factors such as Neurodivergence and or mental illness and add that to the propensity to misogyny and violence and it's a nightmare.

Maybe answered my own question. 🤷‍♀️

I wonder whether narcissism and sociopathy are more associated with males as opposed to females or whether we even have that data.

The Keyham shooter in Plymouth a couple of years ago, first shot his mum before killing others randomly. He was using incel websites.

I wonder whether narcissism and sociopathy are more associated with males as opposed to females or whether we even have that data.

This question led me to remember listening years ago to Prof Jim Fallon talk about his research studying brain imaging of murderers. He found evidence that psychopaths are people who lack emotional empathy, who don't feel love like other people, and who lie and manipulate as a matter of course. He didn’t specifically talk about the sex of those he studied. I’m thinking it’s largely men.

He also said that there is a biological basis for psychopathy, genetics, the brain patterns, and that early existence of trauma, but also that a real, primary psychopath doesn’t need any trauma. That "they’re just predators who don’t need to be angry at all; they do these things because of some fundamental lack of connection with the human race, and with individuals".