Women with internalised misogyny- victims?

[MilkToast]

I see it often on MN, women denigrating all women. Assuming these are in fact women, and not troll men, which I don’t believe they all are. I’ve certainly experienced misogyny from women in my life so it’s not like it doesn’t exist. It is frustrating, but then I began to think, is it a defence mechanism to cope in a world where women are treated by and largely as second class citizens to men? Is it akin to ‘can’t beat them so may as well join them’, on a more subconscious level? Or have they heard the messaging repeated so often that they truly believe it?

I’m trying to come to grips with why women do this, when it’s damaging to women to do so. Hopefully I haven’t said anything wildly offensive, please forgive any strange wording. I have ASD and don’t always communicate well.

Internalised misogyny. And yes, subconsious defence mechanism (I’d never put myself in a position to be a victim, I’ll never be a single mother. Crap like that). Also, many women just aren’t feminists.

Also, many women just aren’t feminists.

I can’t understand this either, to be honest. Why would they view feminism as bad?

Some will actively view it as bad, but many others will think they are feminists because “women should be equal to men” or other such platitudes, but demonstrate zero feminist praxis.

I don’t understand why, but it’s definitely a thing! I guess like not all disabled people are disability activists, or not all black people are anti-racism advocates.

Lack of awareness of the rights that are accepted as standard today that feminists and activists had to campaign for in previous times.

Different payscales for the same job.
Restricted quotas for women in university courses and professions.
Access to bank accounts and mortgages.
Access to educational opportunities.

So many things. Never mind, "What have the Romans ever done for us?" the things feminism have achieved are remarkable which is why it's distressing that these advances are being disregarded so lightly.

Because what is good for the individual isn't always good for the collective and vice versa.

If I set up a company that legally but immorally scams other women out of money then that's a net loss for women but a gain for me. If I give money to charities set up to help other people from the same background as me - that's a plus for our group as a whole but less for me
If I can choose between standing up to a boss that constantly letches on the younger female staff members, or ignoring an furthering my career - what should I do?

I reality, actually, lots of things are mutually beneficial in the long term. But I think no-one really questions why men act in their own individual interest (even if they criticise their morality if they are being immoral) but in women their is often surprise that they aren't acting in the interest of the collective.

Personally I'm not actually fussed about the term "feminist" - it can mean literally anything at this point. So I can understand why why other women might reject the term itself. But I do try to act morally, and often that leads to the label of feminism anyway (because caring about female sex trafficking victims is feminism whereas caring about men is just human rights).

No apology needed for your wording your descriptions are accurate. Agree. Nowhere is it more apparent than in the trans movement. Some women who support men occupying female spaces and tearing down lesbians. They are the biggest cheerleaders of women’s rights and women’s spaces and boundaries (prisons, intimate care, lesbian dating boundaries) being torn up. I didn’t believe I internalised misogyny until I saw female TRAs in action. I was so naive.

I think internalised misogyny and basic darnwism (fear of being eaten up by the big bad wolf too, if I please him he might not come for me), causes this.

It may be something less complicated than internalised misogyny. Any woman who believes that men have a right, by virtue of their sex, to rule the world, to set the rules for women's behavior, to dicate their 'role' etc. has to have a massive lack of self esteem. I've always had a fuck off attitude to that nonsense. It lacked logic. To me it was just normal to see myself as a fully functioning human being right from my feminist days in the 70s to now. What is/was different about me and others like me? It has to be self esteem. With self esteem no amount of misogyny can worm its way into your brain.

because many people, women included, can be selfish.

To certain people, feminism is no longer 'needed' as they have a fairly cushioned existence so don't see what could be happening to others. They live in a bubble and have also explained away the many forms of micro aggressions they'd become so accustomed to all their lives. Many are 'brainwashed' by the patriarchal society we find ourselves in.

They'd soon realise their errors if they walked a step in the shoes of other women and saw the wood from the tree's.

I was recently involved in a thread here, where women were saying how they only had male friends because women were all bullies or bitches.

When I pointed out that they were women so therefore must also be bullies, I was dismissed. Some women seem to think they are exceptions to the rule. All women are [insert stereotypes] except them.

It's natural to side with your oppressor. You get lots of cookies for agreeing with misogynists and life is far easier when you toe the line.

Conforming has always been easier. Try not shaving and going to the beach.

not like the other girls

Unfortunately that was the theme - all women are [stereotype] except me. Irony bypass.

I see it often and hate it everytime.

Well I was there, fighting away for the cause ✊to little avail. It just got quiet and I was told I was taking over the thread.

Then someone said, well stereotypes are true or they wouldn't exist.

Yes, (some) women have always acted against the collective interest of all women. See:women who opposed women getting the vote, women who oppose abortion, women who are Page 3 models, women on juries who don’t want to ruin nice young men’s lives by convicting them of rape.

Unfortunately we wouldn't have patriarchy without female helpmates. It's devastating.

I think saying someone has "internalized misogyny" is often about the same as calling someone black an Oreo, because they don't have the political opinions you think they ought to.

As someone who has been called such an epithet, I can’t see how it’s the same. If you want to use such an analogy, it would be more akin to the Uncle Tom trope, but I don’t think equating internalised misogyny with racist slurs is appropriate.

No it's not because calling a black person a food item is insulting, dehumanising racism.

Whereas 'internalised misogyny' or 'internalised racism' are descriptive and valid as opinions.

"The oppressors would not be so powerful, if they did not have accomplices among the oppressed."

Because while there are aspects of feminism most women agree on, there are also aspects of feminism, or branches of feminism, that conflict with women’s beliefs in other areas.

For example, I see a lot of Germaine Greer quoting on Mumsnet about “women have no idea how much men hate them.” Most women don’t believe men, as a group, hate them. I don’t believe men, as a group, hate women. Feminists also sometimes have a dismissive attitude towards problems men have - who cares if men kill themselves at notably higher rates than women, women attempt suicide more! And a lot of the feminist “movers and shakers,” who tend to come from very educated and usually affluent backgrounds, have a tendency to do two things that are very off-putting.

One, they spend too much time on cultural trivia that’s not terribly important in the grand scheme of things. (Oh no, Greta Gerwig was nominated for the Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar, but not Best Director!) Two, they refuse to acknowledge that not every single man has a higher position in society than they do simple by virtue of being a man. When it comes to the ability to influence other people and shape laws, society, and education, who has more power? A working-class man who left school at sixteen, has never travelled more than fifty miles away from where he was born, and spends his time watching football with his friends when he’s not trying to budget around his child support payments? Or a feminist influencer with a degree from a top university, who has the money to donate to political causes and the time to go to marches and protests? For too many of the most influential feminists, the answer is “men have more power in society than women,” full stop.

Women also have a whole variety of opinions on the role of mothers, when abortion should and shouldn’t be legal, religion. Only some of those opinions seem to be permissible in feminism.

I think “internalized misogyny” is a term that’s overused. Sometimes women don’t hate other women, or themselves for being women - they’re insecure, or a particular issue has never affected them or anyone they know. And I’ve seen it used way too often as a tactic some women use to try to shame other women into shutting up.

I don’t know or care if I’m a feminist or not. I try to do what I think is the right thing, regardless of whatever label people want to slap on it.

Because what is good for the individual isn't always good for the collective and vice versa.

I think this is one of the main reasons. People usually put the interests of themselves, their family, their "in-group" etc. first. Even feminist women.

You get lots of cookies for agreeing with misogynists and life is far easier when you toe the line.

Yep.

I find the two terms are used pretty interchangeably, but sure, say it's like Uncle Tom if you l think it's a more accurate. comparison.

I'm not sure what would make the comparison "inappropriate".

Essentially you are saying that women who don't think the way you believe they ought to about certain issues must have some kind of internal self-hatred, or be more identifying with males (the enemy).

It's a way to shut people down and invalidate their views as wrongthink.

Are there women who hate women, or black people who hate being black, or gay or lesbian people who hate homosexuality? Probably a few, but usually that's not why they disagree with the left or identitarian belief on a particular topic.

I don't believe anyone means women with different opinions have internalised mysogyny. In my opinion internalised mysogyny is believing mysogynist tropes about yourself and other women, and siding with misogynists over women.

An example of internalised mysogyny would be a woman telling a survivor of sexual assault that she brought it on herself.

Yes this is what I mean. And statements like ‘All women are (insert negative stereotype)’. How can billions of women all be any given characteristic?

People don't like it when you point that out. When I say 3bn women can't all be [insert stereotype], I get told to stop saying that. I think that having internalised mysogyny means that you don't like to have your views challenged.

It's absolutely impossible for all women to think or behave in the same way or have the same interests.

Are there women who hate women, or black people who hate being black, or gay or lesbian people who hate homosexuality? Probably a few, but usually that's not why they disagree with the left or identitarian belief on a particular topic.

To me internalised misogyny is when for example, believe that women’s worth is tied to being in a relationship/married to a man, to having children.
That childless/free women are useless, selfish, wrong etc.
Or that it’s women’s duty to objectify themselves, so make-up, revealing clothes. Or else they are ugly, or not taking care of themselves.

I don’t think it’s about not liking being a woman in and of itself.
I once hated being a woman, but that was because of societal expectations that are imposed to women.
For example the things I just listed.