Women with internalised misogyny- victims?

[MilkToast]

I see it often on MN, women denigrating all women. Assuming these are in fact women, and not troll men, which I don’t believe they all are. I’ve certainly experienced misogyny from women in my life so it’s not like it doesn’t exist. It is frustrating, but then I began to think, is it a defence mechanism to cope in a world where women are treated by and largely as second class citizens to men? Is it akin to ‘can’t beat them so may as well join them’, on a more subconscious level? Or have they heard the messaging repeated so often that they truly believe it?

I’m trying to come to grips with why women do this, when it’s damaging to women to do so. Hopefully I haven’t said anything wildly offensive, please forgive any strange wording. I have ASD and don’t always communicate well.

I don't know...
I been on other threads with you and disagreed quite strongly with some of your posts - I think we are in very different places politically. But I don't think I have ever thought anything you said came across as misogyny or internalised misogyny. I think there is such a thing as internalised misogyny - and its different to just "I disagree with this person". Yes, some people will use it to mean "any opinions I disagree with" in the same way some people use the word "far right" or "communist" to mean the same thing. But it doesn't mean those descriptions are never valid.

Many of the things people have mentioned in this thread specifically are very much differences of opinion.

Whether women - as a group, that is to say statistically - have different behaviours from men, and why. And what the outcomes of the statistical reality are.
Whether women should be feminists and what feminism is.
How to treat abortion legally and what it means morally
Whether it is ok to have page 3 models, or be a page 3 model.
Even about gender ideology.

These are all things lots of people have opinions about that aren't caused by internalized misogyny. And it gets leveled for a lot of other controversial questions that feminists like to claim ownership of too.

Women as a group having statistically significant behaviour differences to men that is down to nature not nurture= opinion or debate. "I just find women super bitchy" "all women are annoying/lie about stuff" =internalised misogyny.

I think that there are people with internalized hatred.

But that's actually quite rarely the reason we see people disagree in the kinds of discussions we see around MN.

The last page was largely a claim that that AIBU thread talking about female friends was about internalized misogyny. There was really nothing in that thread that was particularly suggestive of that.

That kind of explanation should probably be about the last one we reach for, and it should ideally be supported by some other evidence of knowledge showing the person has such sentiments. Otherwise a better assumption is that there is a reason based on the person's logical process or personal experiences and observations.

"I find women bitchy" strikes me more as a personal experience. Literally - I general "I find women harder to get on with." It's not offering much curiosity or analysis, but does it have to?

The underlying sense in this thread is these people are either fibbing or imposing an external view of women as difficult, rather than reporting their actual experiences. So it's an a priori assumption that women who say they find women harder to be friends with are not describing the actual situation - they are liars or self-deluded.

This.

I'm ashamed to admit that I used to be one of those women. I used to hang out with the guys, agreeing with their misogynistic slurs and laughing that I wasn't one of those women. Then years later I got divorced from a porn-addled, (self-diagnosed) narcissistic cunt and the scales fell from my eyes. I can't really explain or justify why I was like that. The only defence that I have is that I was incredibly naive and found it hard to make female friends. My male friends accepted me in a way that women didn't, probably because they could sense my vulnerability and in their eyes I was a pretty trophy to bring to nights out and if I'm honest maybe someone they thought they could fuck. I hope that makes sense, like OP I'm not great with words and am possibly ASD too.
I've had 5 long term relationships in my life and I can now see that, aside from my lovely current partner, only one actually liked/respected/loved me, the others used and abused me for their own ends and I just didn't see it.
I'm a proper feminist now.

Truth. The self- centredness of people never fails to depress me.

But i do think it gets used the other way - and then if you object to it you are deemed a misogynist. so I struggled with the i believe you campaign a few years ago - i forget the tag line- but effectively said i always believe women claiming sexual abuse/rape - eg all women are honest - does not supporting that make me a misogygnist
women, even feminists don't have the same views about everything and to call them misogynist is an easy slur

I think it's a sign of internalized misogyny when women do things like blame the victim of sexual assault, shame women for being less than perfect Stepford wives/GFs/mothers, shame other women for either their sexuality or a supposed lack thereof (not "sexy" enough, sexually "uptight," etcetera) and any kind of shame heaped on women for not following traditional gender stereotypes. Expecting women to aquiesce to men's demands (like accepting biological males in single sex spaces) may partly be about internalized misogyny in some cases, but more likely it's just about the kind of wholescale tolerance and acceptance ideology that doesn't have enough critical thinking behind it.

So I think it can be a valid supposition, as judged on a case by case basis.
Sometimes it's like you can feel the contempt for other women oozing out of somebody, and you just know. I see no reason why one can't express the belief that somebody is responding as she is based on internalized misogyny, as long as the belief seems reasonable based on the evidence at hand.That's true of any belief you have about another person.

Not believing that every woman is honest isn't misogynistic, as long as you aren't spouting those tired rape myths that portray women as commonly making false sexual assault charges.
I think the believing women thing is not really about believing every single woman, it's saying that the overwhelming majority of the time, women are telling the truth about sexual assault, so it makes sense to err on the side of belief rather than on disbelief.

I do know of one woman (who was an acquaintance for a very short time as I couldn't stand her) who turned out to be a proven false rape accuser, but she wasn't believed and I doubt there are many who are, considering it's so hard to get authorities to believe a truthful claim. This idiot had consensually fucked a date right in front of CCTV and claimed he randomly attacked her. She had tried it with a previous date as well.
I'm sure it occasionally happens that a liar is believed, just as with any other false accusation. I had the miserable experience of being falsely accused of physical assault, so that obviously happens as well.

Whether women - as a group, that is to say statistically - have different behaviours from men, and why. And what the outcomes of the statistical reality are.

I'm not sure what this is referring to. I was referring to mysogynist tropes. These are negative stereotypes directed at women. Do you have those stats on the behaviour of 3bn women all acting the same?

Whether women should be feminists and what feminism is.

Feminism is the belief in equality amongst other things. If a woman doesn't believe she's equal to man, surely that's because of internalised misogyny.

How to treat abortion legally and what it means morally

There was no debate on this, it was given as an example of internalised misogyny. A woman denying another woman an abortion.

Whether it is ok to have page 3 models, or be a page 3 model.

Again there wasn't a debate on this, it was mentioned. I would count a woman who agreed with women being used as sexual objects, as having internalised misogyny.

Even about gender ideology.

I'll have to re read the thread as I don't remember this. I would need to know what that person said and their argument.

I'm not sure what your argument here is. You're saying that you don't believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted unless what? Do you need proof of the assault? If you look at the statistics, there are only a tiny percentage of false claims. If a friend said they'd been sexually assaulted, you wouldn't believe them because not all women tell the truth.

People saying that women who are calling other women mysogynist because they have a difference of opinion are either being disengenuous or don't know what mysogyny is.

There was really nothing in that thread that was particularly suggestive of that.

In your opinion. In my opinion, there was plenty to back up that claim. I get on better with men because they're less bitchy is obviously a mysogynist statement. I get on better with men because women all talk about each other is a mysogynist statement. I get on better with men because [insert stereotype] is mysogynist.

Otherwise a better assumption is that there is a reason based on the person's logical process or personal experiences and observations.

For disliking all women?

I think the believing women thing is not really about believing every single woman, it's saying that the overwhelming majority of the time, women are telling the truth about sexual assault, so it makes sense to err on the side of belief rather than on disbelief.

Exactly. The whole believing women part of it is more that logically, if you look at it the chances of a false accusation are low n the grand scheme of things. And as a victim myself, i know the vast vast majority of women will have been or will be sexually assaulted or raped unfortunately. So i will always err on the side of belief also, rather than being dismissive. Others being dismissive is why many, like me, never reported the crimes against us.

Saying that women who say specifically misogynistic things don’t have internalised misogyny, and that they have internalised hatred instead… would someone who makes broad sweeping negative statements about their specific race (ethnicity) not have internalised racism, then? Instead it’s that they have internalised hatred? Specifying and naming the type of hatred is important. Using a vague term otherwise obscures the nature of the hatred and then makes it difficult to confront the specific issue.

Any women who repeats and belives misogynistic statements about other women does have internalised misogyny. I.e. "she was asking to be raped" "women are too emotional to be in charge, men are better leaders". Those are the extremes but yes it doesn't just start at the extreme level, you get the "women are bossy and men are leaders" and so on.

internalised hatred towards women is internalised misogyny.

What makes you think they're women, Op?

This is an anonymous public board that anyone can use. I can say I'm whoever I like. You don't know if I'm man, woman or child.

There are a lot of men on here. Some say so; some don't.

I can’t say for certain who is a woman or not on MN, but it exists out in the ‘real world’ as well. I’ve heard it a lot in my family by women (in my case, a deeply religious family, myself excluded). That’s why I prefaced my post with ‘Assuming these are in fact women, and not troll men, which I don’t believe they all are. I’ve certainly experienced misogyny from women in my life so it’s not like it doesn’t exist.’

What do you mean stats on 3 bn women acting the same?

That's not how statistics work.

You can make generalizations about groups.

You can't, however, apply those to each individual, or each specific instance. That's a mathematically and logically incorrect way to use statistics.

For example, we can say men are more physically violent than women. The statistics are very clear on this. But it's a statement about men as a whole.

You cannot apply it to individual men or individual women.

This is very basic, to science, sociology, psychology. I don't understand why people have so much trouble understanding it. Especially when they seem to be able to understand it in some instances.

I wasn't actually drawing a distinction between misogyny and a women having internalized hatred.

I am suggesting that your assumption is that finding women's social interactions in general more difficult than men's isn't (necessarily) misogyny. Whether you call that being bitchy or use a more descriptive kid of language.

The reason they don't include themselves in that is because they are making a generalization, they know it's not everyone who is the same because they understand the difference between statements about groups and statements about individuals.

And yes, people can and do sometimes make generalizations about their own racial group, without having some kind of internalized racial hatred. IN fact I'd say it's quite common.

My point is, a statement such as:

Women are bullies so I have male friends - is wrong.

All women aren't bullies. Men can also bully. Someone who thinks that all women are bullies is displaying misogynist views.

Sometimes that's about misogyny and sometimes it's more that they just aren't very bright and are self absorbed. They may have personally had trouble with female bullies, and lacking imagination and the ability to see beyond themselves, they assume that what happened to them is what happens to everyone.

Irrespective of why they're saying it, it's misogynist. Misogyny includes prejudice against women as well as having different standards where men are viewed more leniently. Women are often treated more harshly than men for perceived infractions.