Non binary. I think I get it.

[llamalines]

I mean, not the self obsessed men pretending to be NB, but how identifying as NB could be attractive to teenage girls.

I was in a shop yesterday and spoke to a sales assistant who was stunningly beautiful.

She was dressed androgynously - short hair, no make up, male cut clothes. She looked like she was about 18 maybe.

She reminded me of myself when I was a teenager. I wasn't stunningly beautiful, but I used to get a fair bit of attention from sleezy older men on a regular basis and I HATED it.

I remembered how I used to wear baggy jeans and keep my hood up when out, to try to read "boy", to keep the sleezy men at bay. Which worked a bit. I didn't think I was a boy, but it felt like my armour.

I can well imagine teenage girls being sick of the male gaze, of unwanted attention and of boys' expectations driven by porn, and seeing being NB as a way to opt out of all that pressure. I can see my teen self finding a feeling of protection or solace in it, do you know what I mean?

Goodness these girls need access to some solid feminism!!

I've noticed that most of the high school and middle school girls (I'm in the US, so ages 11 to 18) who get off the school bus where I am have for years now been wearing non-tight jeans and oversized hoodies even when it's hot. Dark clothes, non-form-fitting. Not all of them, of course.

It’s what I did. I marched around in a shirt and tie, then went for a pixie crop and big boots. Refused to carry a handbag. Still doing similar, thirty-odd years later.

I didn’t feel the need for a label, though. And I certainly knew what I was. I was rejecting what society expected from me as a woman; not my womanhood itself.

Oh yes. I was in high school when grunge got big and it was normal for women to have baggy jeans and big plaid shirts. But in the late '90s there was a 180 and seems like for a long time after that, it was low rise jeans, midriff shirts, and short skirts.

I’m reminded of this excellent video by the inimitable Magdalene Burns.
God I miss her.

I have been thinking it's less about hiding from the world and more trying to understand a sense of not fitting in or being at peace with oneself. How can I change what I don't like about myself and my life? What's a visible expressive outlet for my inner conflict about who I am?

I am in my late 50s. When I look at old photos of myself and my friends in our teens and 20s we look very androgynous. There simply wasn't the pressure then to be hyper sexualised at such an early age. I remember well how uncomfortable that 'male gaze' made me feel. I'd quite like a bit of that back now though lol!

Impossible I know but it would be great to go back to a society where kids are not exposed to sexual content and the expectation of gendered roles so early. It's crazy to even write that as we are supposed to be a more equal society these days. Women's liberation definitely seems to have taken a step back - but somehow we seem to be choosing it!

I definitely get it from a woman/girl's point of view. I have a co-worker who is NB and they dress as if they want to completely disappear - Shapeless, plain, dark matte clothes.

I do wonder if anyone has done any studies on female NB experiences with males. Are there higher than average proportions of female NB folk who have experienced sexual abuse, sexual assault etc.

A perfect illustration of my view.

Of course I understand the feelings. What woman hasn't, at least once, looled at the position we're in and thought 'Fuck this shit, I don't want to play any more'?

But opting out on an individual basis is cowardly, it's selfish, and it doesn't work. It doesn't protect those who do it and it contributes to making things even worse for those who don't - partly, as described by PP, by narrowing the category of 'womanhood' even further, and partly by reinforcing the argument for men 'opting in' from the other direction and increasing all the problems that come with that.

Yeah there's often that feeling that a non-binary person thinks they're the only one who has managed to identify the problem and by saying it doesn't apply to me, they fixed it.

And if no one else says it, then they must be happy with the situation.

It doesn't address the problem for those who don't identify as non-binary, and it doesn't fix the problem for the woman who does.

It's why people get a little irritated by it. The motivation is understandable, but the result does fuck all to help anyone.

I'm 20 now and I still do that. And I've a friend who wears men's jeans when she travels. She says not only does it avoid the curves that men's eyes seem drawn to but it also means she has deep pockets...

I guess my question is, if someone who is a feminist thinks that a younger person being non binary is essentially a personally political thing reacting against hypersexualisation of women, why the condescension or outright mockery?

I know a number of non binary people, and they're very switched on, and they just have a different viewpoint on how to challenge misogyny. I don't agree with every point of view they have, but when they say they're not women, they're using the word as a cultural marker. Some of them, with the imprecision that comes with youthful enthusiasm, sometimes substitute female, but they are all very aware of the material limitations they face.

I just think back to when I was navigating the world as a youngster, and how the women who made a constructive impact on me weren't the ones sneering at me and telling me how much of an idiot I was for thinking that the reality for women (and I'm using the word there in the sense mostly accepted on MN) could ever improve.

And as for the comments about elective mastectomy, I sometimes wonder why there isn't the same enthusiasm to patronise and/or denounce young women who get breast enhancement surgery, given that there are many overlapping risks, in terms of lack of sensation, and even problems with the implants etc. and it's presented in the same life-enhancing way by those who profit from it, arguably more so in the cosmetic surgery industry.

It's the first step though.

Datun's post Thursday at 18:56

Agree wholeheartedly. I too absolutely understand the need to make yourself invisible. The landscape of misogyny now may be different to when we were young women but it's not a better different.

But sadly the reason for us to be invisible has not gone away and will not let our young women hide

I don't know, I used to hear a fair bit of sneering about women who had breast enhancement surgery. In some quarters it was seen as a low-class thing to do. There's probably a lot to unpick there.

I haven't noticed it in recent years, and I'd guess that's because elective body modification has become fashionable in the right places.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/589880/breast-augmentation-cosmetic-surgery-united-kingdom-uk/

Interestingly, the numbers of breast 'augmentation' seems to be falling. I would never sneer at someone who had an elective mastectomy because they thought they were born in the wrong body. I save my vitriol for the surgeons who are doing this to young and confused women and the doctors who are encouraging them to believe they will be happier after extreme body modification without exploring the psychology behind their choices and without any evidence that mental health improves after mastectomy.

I'm not sure what's happened to young girls. I can remember being a teenager (mumble mumble years ago) and it seemed we were much more unisex in style while still knowing what the sexes were. I can't remember any girls who regularly wore full makeup, and not that many who had really long hair. Nobody wore dresses except for things like weddings or formal dances. Once out of school uniform, girls and boys alike were in jumpers and jeans. Girls with big breasts who wanted to hide their figures just wore baggy jumpers.

I have three teens - two girls and dressing like this no makeup, jeans, hoodies every day is still a thing - and dressed for formal occasions.

Hair was odd in eldest teens years - all girls has to have really long hair - that has lessened - more styles now.

YY to what others have said, but also: it's completely irrational. The fundamental underpinning premise of gender ideology is that everyone has an inner gender identity that either matches, or doesn't match, their biological sex. Non-binary people are saying they don't have a gender identity - so how does that work? It doesn't.

Given that most of us on this board would also say we lack a gender identity, then I suppose that makes all of us non-binary too.

Absolutely. It just means being allowed to be.

they just have a different viewpoint on how to challenge misogyny

The problem is, they're not challenging it. At best they are attempting a sidestep, and many are buying into it wholesale. Either way, they reinforce misogynist and patriarchal ideas.

I don't really agree. There's a very long history of feminists prodding at what it means to be a woman in a patriarchy, and not every feminist has landed in the same place on it. I think this is in the same vein as exploring womanhood as a social construct, which isn't a new idea at all.

Yeah, but I don't think I've ever heard a young woman who had a boob job told she'd 'mutilated herself', and certainly not seen such a comment portrayed as coming from a place of concern for her. I agree with there being a class element there, but I also think there's a whole lot of stuff in the differing responses to elective mastectomy and breast enhancement which feeds into exactly the hypersexualised femininity or restrictive roles that people are suggesting leads into the non binary identity stuff.

I really don't see how anyone can see a young woman cutting off her breasts because of a retrogressive and sexist ideology as anything other than mutilating themselves. The fact that no-one goes down this path without some kind of trauma, mental health problem or autism/ADHD is additional cause for concern. It's hardly taking a stand for women's rights.

I used to dress manly when I was 20 and on the dyke scene. Unfortunately I got the same amount of male attention but from a different type of man.

I must be on another planet woman are ridiculed and pitted against each other what ever they do. How many threads on mumnset about enhancements and how they look awful , what message this sends etc,etc. Also rose coloured specs about woman from previous generations about the make gaze. Blimey we had page 3 girls at 16 years old, the school girl stereotype. There were slimming advertisements on TV. I was aware from a young teen. Why attack young woman just trying to figure things out,they are not individually responsible for living life in the way others think they should.

I don't think I've ever heard a young woman who had a boob job told she'd 'mutilated herself', and certainly not seen such a comment portrayed as coming from a place of concern for her

I have. Not so much recently, perhaps, but plenty around the time they first allowed plastic surgery adverts and magazines aimed at young women were full of them; and when glamour models were becoming mainstream celebrities and using increasingly extreme enhancements to gain or maintain a profile; and when the various implant scandals broke (also fillers and botox). Plenty of dicussion about social media pressure, age limits, lack of understanding of long term consequences, poorly regulated practitioners encouraging people to go futher and further ... a lot of parallels with the current debate.