Non binary. I think I get it.

[llamalines]

I mean, not the self obsessed men pretending to be NB, but how identifying as NB could be attractive to teenage girls.

I was in a shop yesterday and spoke to a sales assistant who was stunningly beautiful.

She was dressed androgynously - short hair, no make up, male cut clothes. She looked like she was about 18 maybe.

She reminded me of myself when I was a teenager. I wasn't stunningly beautiful, but I used to get a fair bit of attention from sleezy older men on a regular basis and I HATED it.

I remembered how I used to wear baggy jeans and keep my hood up when out, to try to read "boy", to keep the sleezy men at bay. Which worked a bit. I didn't think I was a boy, but it felt like my armour.

I can well imagine teenage girls being sick of the male gaze, of unwanted attention and of boys' expectations driven by porn, and seeing being NB as a way to opt out of all that pressure. I can see my teen self finding a feeling of protection or solace in it, do you know what I mean?

Goodness these girls need access to some solid feminism!!

I have an 11yr old DD and I too can see how it can appeal: from their perspective to identify as "female" as it is depicted on most mainstream media is to agree to conform to a certain image which mainly comprises of permanent full face make up, constantly changing perfectly styled hair and nails, and revealing and/or figure hugging clothes.... If I were her age I'd want to be NB too 🤷🏼‍♀️

Absolutely. Saying you are non-binary is a (v hopeful) way of opting out of being objectified.

It's an attempt to step out from the cohort who is objectified.

But from a feminist point of view, the cohort being objectified remains, so it's not very helpful.

But also, men don't give a shit how you identify yourself, it's all about how they identify you. So again, it doesn't change anything.

But yes, I'm sure it's a way of signalling you don't want to be objectified. Unfortunately, men don't care about that.

If you take men's pornified view of women and tell teenage girls that is what a woman is then it's not very surprising when a significant number of them say I'm obviously not a woman then. It's just a shame they can't say, that's not what a woman is.

I definitely get it. If I were twentymumble years younger I'd probably be doing it myself.
But I keep thinking about the multiple news stories I've read where a TIF was sexually harassed or assaulted by a cabdriver "even though I told him I'm a man."

I get it completely, and that would probably have been me too. It’s the assumption that if I just say I am a woman, I am buying into stereotypical femininity and/or a pornified version of what a woman is.

And the sad delusion that they can identify out of the shit that comes with being biologically female.

As a female, just calling yourself something else doesn't change the face that men still see you as female, wether you're wearing a bodycon dress and stilettos, or loose trousers and a baggy jumper, some men will still see you as prey.

I also understand the urge to identify as non binary to opt out of gender stereotypes although as others have said standing up and saying 'I am what a woman is' is preferable. I was a bit shocked to see a non binary female who had had a mastectomy on Sadiq Khan's London Underground poster campaign for Pride. It's not completely harmless.

"as others have said standing up and saying 'I am what a woman is' is preferable"

It's interesting that society at large makes it so much easier in some ways to 'opt out of being female' than to challenge stereotypes.

I grew up in the ladette era so the idea that it is ok to be a girl but act in a male (gendered) way and not have to be "ladylike" I absolutely get.

The non binary teens I know are introverted and seem to be striving for something close to invisibility. They just want to be left alone to get on with life. Society has gone very wrong somewhere such that girls don't feel comfortable simply being girls.

I thought we all got it. That's why we fight it because we know the answer to that problem is not pretending you're not a woman or self harm.

Sure. I get it. It doesn’t fix a fucking thing though and it is detrimental to female people collectively. So, while they might feel better, they have made life much more difficult for others.

If they simply presented in a way that is unisex/nuetral etc, fine, but this is a harmful ideological belief. When it has become acceptable for female people to cut off their breasts to avoid being objectified, society is at the fucked stage. What should have happened is that we discussed the issues up front without being silenced (thank you to those who did it anyway) and that is where the discussion should have focused.

But no. Male people leveraged the needs of these female children and young people and these female children and young people
became useful resources to push a very male skewed benefit.

Oh yes, NB (women) make complete sense to me. It makes me sad that they can’t see that you can be androgynous and/or rail against pervy men while being a woman, but I get it.

I’m just thanking my lucky stars that I found MN as a teenager and not fecking Tumblr.

I get the - I don't confirm to societal expectations and I will dress how I want - but what I don't get is the drawing attention to it by pronouns etc... Totally understand the desire to dress and present in a way to not draw attention from the male gaze. But why does that need a label?

I think it operates as a protective shield for some. For others it will be attention seeking behaviour (I don’t mean that like it’s a terrible thing because everyone does this in some way) and for most a mix. I reckon teenage girls want a way of controlling the kind of attention they get.

Can definitely understand how tempting it must be to think you can identify out of being objectified. It doesn't work, but at least there's the illusion of having some agency.

I'm not sure what's happened to young girls. I can remember being a teenager (mumble mumble years ago) and it seemed we were much more unisex in style while still knowing what the sexes were. I can't remember any girls who regularly wore full makeup, and not that many who had really long hair. Nobody wore dresses except for things like weddings or formal dances. Once out of school uniform, girls and boys alike were in jumpers and jeans. Girls with big breasts who wanted to hide their figures just wore baggy jumpers.

Not that we were the height of style, far from it, but today... Leave aside what porn-addled boys think girls should be. Maybe it's more worrying that girls seem to think their only options are to be a stereotypical girly girl, or to be Cameron or Felix (he/they).

I didn't think non binary people were saying they aren't a man or woman, just that they don't ascribe to binary stereotypes or wish to be identified by others as male or female because of expectations, is this right?

No, they are saying they are not men or women. Sometimes very angrily!

I don't indetify as anything I don't see people have to, sure I have labels if people need to put me in a box and stick a label on it but why can't I just be me, and I mean this for everyone why the sudden need to be 'something'

Very interesting. I'm 20 and considered "traditionally attractive" (blonde, blue eyes, "curvaceous") and I just love hiding in outsized jackets and men's jeans. So funny when guys who've ignored me suddenly see me as I get off a bus or leave a room and realise l was a woman all the time!
"Oh hey you're um a babe".
"Sorry? I'm just a person" I say in as deep a voice as I can.
I don't hold with this non-binary stuff but it's wonderful to see the various reactions I get from men who are just SO unsure of how to react to me.

Non-binary is another way to remove what it is to be a woman from you.

In the past a woman could be many things - some very masculine - and still be classed as a woman.

For women who say they are non-binary - by doing so, this changes the category 'Woman' into 'conforming to sex stereotypes and performing femininity'.

These kids think they are being edgy and cool and 'non-conforming' but what's really happening is that different ways to be a woman are being removed and only the pornified version of women (the easily copied by men, costume parts) are left behind.

In the future will you only be a woman if you conform to femininity and anything else will be non-binary?

Yes I can understand where it may come from for some girls, but I still think that it is not only bullshit and selfish but very detrimental for girls overall. Far too much focus on labels, and supportive of a very harmful ideology.

its the difference between
'Women should not be objectified!' and
'I don't want to be objectified, so I will pretend I am not a woman'

Exactly

I went into our local Weatherspoons recently for the first time. Apparently it's one of the most notorious Spoons in the UK.

The 3 staff I saw were all small young women who looked as you described. I would not have been at all surprised if they had NB ID.

my first thought was they were avoiding sexual harassment - they were almost physically embodying the grey rock technique.

I had flashbacks to the endless sexual harassment I received working in. spoons 30 years ago.

It all made sense.

Amongst DD's peers it's as much about finding you do not match up to society's ridiculous stereotypes of 'female' (pretty/thin/sexy/confident/available etc) Much easier/better to reject all of it than fail to meet the impossible standards