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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bank of England staff told to share pronouns and use ‘gender neutral’ language

251 replies

IwantToRetire · 01/09/2024 01:01

... “while fostering a sense of inclusion among employees is, of course, a worthwhile objective”, he believed that training courses like the one given to Bank staff are “ideologically driven”.

“As a result, they may have the unintended effect of fostering an intolerant workplace culture in which some employees feel they cannot express certain, perfectly legitimate points of view,” the letter said.

“Our primary concern is that the ‘Trans Inclusion’ course appears to promote gender identity ideology while stigmatising gender critical beliefs, which are <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/P9CHb/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/28/left-has-captured-language-of-political-debate/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">protected under the Equality Act 2010.”
The FSU’s letter highlighted a part of the training that stated “using the wrong pronouns” is another example of a “microaggression”.

Full article in the Telegraph at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/31/bank-england-share-pronouns-woke-training-trans-rights-sex/

Can also be read in full at https://archive.is/P9CHb

I assumed this must be an old stories as I thought most institutions had given up on this nonsense. But appears to be recent'

Bank of England staff told to share pronouns and use ‘gender neutral’ language

Employees were instructed to use language such as ‘cisgender’ to refer to a person who identifies as sex they were assigned at birth

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/31/bank-england-share-pronouns-woke-training-trans-rights-sex

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
CautiousLurker · 02/09/2024 17:59

@Balletdreamer not sure - I have a unisex name, originally spelled in the tradional male form until I did a deedpoll change, but in the US it is still ambiguous.

All my working life I simply put (Ms) or (Mrs) after my name to avoid the ‘misgendering’ that started at 16 with my NI card stating ‘Mr’. To this day I don’t understand the purported trauma of being misgendered as it has happened throughout my 20 year career in the city….

Balletdreamer · 02/09/2024 18:00

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/09/2024 17:54

I’m pretty sure that pronoun sharing started for an entirely different reason, that our workforce has become more diverse and that we aren’t all able to tell if a name is male or female.

This has long been the case. Pronoun sharing hasn't been happening for that long.

No but it was introduced to address that right? I understand it on emails, but not when people include them in person when it’s plainly obvious. So it’s been adopted for a different cause, I’ve also seen a few recently that say she/they etc. that makes no sense, how can someone both be she and they?!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/09/2024 18:01

The whole "preferred pronoun" thing is about trans identity.

TWETMIRF · 02/09/2024 18:14

He and she have a long existing meaning based on sex. Genderists have swooped in and insist that the meaning has changed. People who continue using the words in the commonly accepted way are being told that the meaning has changed and that they need to obey.

Pagans had a festival called Oestre where they celebrated the Goddess Oestre and had done so for a long time. Christians came along and changed the spelling to Easter and insisted that the new version was what people should follow.

Both are intolerant, forced changes of existing terminology. It's too late to change Easter but we can still stop the he/she bastardisation

Catiette · 02/09/2024 18:43

I’m pretty sure that pronoun sharing started for an entirely different reason, that our workforce has become more diverse and that we aren’t all able to tell if a name is male or female.

Like others, I quite strongly disagree. In fact, I worry that this misperception risks inadvertently re-writing history in yet another way that disadvantages women and girls.

One of the many distressing aspects of gender ideology, for me, is that women and girls have endured centuries of linguistic erasure without the slightest attention being paid to this.

We've tolerated, and continue to tolerate, the generic masculine (eg. "mankind"). We're been "misgendered" daily, in offices across the country, as the default masculine and sexist assumptions about professional hierarchies endure. Yes, we've seen a slow shift towards our recognition in language (eg. "chairwoman/person"). But we still use the patronymic, in most cases. And where language does distinguish us, it still, as often as not, sustains the weight of patriarchal oppression: in teaching, the diminutive "Miss" versus the authoritative "Sir" (yes, it does make a difference); in swearing, the astonishingly creative range of words for women versus the more limited range for men; in the media, the patronising use of "female" as a distinguishing marker of "otherness" - it's "The World Cup" versus "The Women's World Cup" / "the entrepreneur" (male, naturally) as opposed to "the female entrepreneur" - that labels us as different, as secondary to the default or norm. Think about the invidious effect that has on young girls.

To recognise our tolerance and dignity in the face of these enduring limitations placed on us by language, only to witness, in stark comparison, the instant and absolute condemnation of misgendering transpeople (as no less than "dehumanising hatred"!) is to see the true extent of our oppression.

And that's before you realise that not only is this treatment of the different demographics - female and trans - revealingly inconsistent... but that the current ideology is systematically obscuring or diminishing our most precious, painfully recent gains: "Madam Speaker" / the "highest-earning businesswoman" / even "the women's boxing" - all no longer a source of undiluted pride or excitement (and they genuinely were for me, before this) as they could now be male...

Just as "she" and "woman" were gaining validity in the public sphere - associated no longer only with domestic stereotypes but with professional and leadership roles, and women's acceptance into traditionally male-dominated jobs, and I’m pretty sure that pronoun sharing started for an entirely different reason, that our workforce has become more diverse and that we aren’t all able to tell if a name is male or female.

Like others, I quite strongly disagree. In fact, I worry that this misperception risks of inadvertently re-writing history in yet another way that disadvantages women and girls.

One of the many distressing aspects of gender ideology, for me, is that women and girls have endured centuries of linguistic erasure without the slightest attention being paid to this.

We've tolerated, and continue to tolerate, the generic masculine (eg. "mankind"). We've been "misgendered" daily, in offices across the country, as the default masculine and sexist assumptions about professional hierarchies endure. Yes, we've seen a slow shift towards our recognition in language (eg. "chairwoman/person"). But we still use the patronymic, in most cases. And where language does distinguish us, it still, as often as not, sustains the weight of patriarchal oppression: in teaching, the diminutive "Miss" versus the authoritative "Sir" (yes, it does make a difference); in swearing, the astonishingly creative range of words for women versus the more limited range for men; in the media, the patronising use of "female" as a distinguishing marker of "otherness" - it's "The World Cup" versus "The Women's World Cup" / "the entrepreneur" (male, naturally) as opposed to "the female entrepreneur" - that marks us as different, as secondary to the default or norm. Think about the invidious effect that has on young girls.

To recognise our tolerance and dignity in the face of these ongoing limitations placed on us by language, only to witness, in comparison, the ready and absolute condemnation of misgendering transpeople as dehumanising "hatred", is to see the true extent of our oppression.

And that's before you realise that not only is this treatment of the different demographics - female and trans - revealingly inconsistent... but that the current ideology is systematically obscuring or diminishing our most precious, painfully recent gains: "Madam Speaker" / the "highest-earning businesswoman" / even "the women's boxing" - all no longer a source of undiluted pride or excitement (and they genuinely were for me, before this) as they could now be male...

Just as "she" and "woman" were gaining validity in the public sphere - associated no longer only with domestic stereotypes but with professional leadership roles, and traditionally male-dominated jobs (and competence, as opposed to an assumption of inferiority) in these contexts - they've promptly been appropriated to signify "gender". The very social construct behind our past invisibility is being used to erase us once again.

Our sex - its reality and history, and our associated oppression - is linguistically erased, on a collective level, once again.- they've been appropriated to signify "gender". Our sex - its reality and history, and our associated oppression - is linguistically erased, on a collective level, once again.

popeydokey · 02/09/2024 18:57

He and she have a long existing meaning based on sex. Genderists have swooped in and insist that the meaning has changed.

I wouldn't necessarily mind but they won't tell us what it's changed to! How does a 'he' differ from a 'she'?

Catiette · 02/09/2024 20:14

Huh. Summat went a bit weird with my post above.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/09/2024 20:27

Catiette · 02/09/2024 20:14

Huh. Summat went a bit weird with my post above.

But the meaning is clear and so well expressed. Flowers

Snowypeaks · 02/09/2024 20:27

Catiette · 02/09/2024 20:14

Huh. Summat went a bit weird with my post above.

Your meaning was clear.
Brilliantly expressed and thought through as always.

Catiette · 02/09/2024 20:46

Glad it makes sense. Glitchy post - but some things are worth saying twice in a row... 😅

windysocks · 02/09/2024 20:51

I have noticed a big increase in this in tax payer funded occupations: CPS, witness care, police, Gp's and their admin staff, court staff, etc

Helleofabore · 02/09/2024 20:56

Catiette · 02/09/2024 18:43

I’m pretty sure that pronoun sharing started for an entirely different reason, that our workforce has become more diverse and that we aren’t all able to tell if a name is male or female.

Like others, I quite strongly disagree. In fact, I worry that this misperception risks inadvertently re-writing history in yet another way that disadvantages women and girls.

One of the many distressing aspects of gender ideology, for me, is that women and girls have endured centuries of linguistic erasure without the slightest attention being paid to this.

We've tolerated, and continue to tolerate, the generic masculine (eg. "mankind"). We're been "misgendered" daily, in offices across the country, as the default masculine and sexist assumptions about professional hierarchies endure. Yes, we've seen a slow shift towards our recognition in language (eg. "chairwoman/person"). But we still use the patronymic, in most cases. And where language does distinguish us, it still, as often as not, sustains the weight of patriarchal oppression: in teaching, the diminutive "Miss" versus the authoritative "Sir" (yes, it does make a difference); in swearing, the astonishingly creative range of words for women versus the more limited range for men; in the media, the patronising use of "female" as a distinguishing marker of "otherness" - it's "The World Cup" versus "The Women's World Cup" / "the entrepreneur" (male, naturally) as opposed to "the female entrepreneur" - that labels us as different, as secondary to the default or norm. Think about the invidious effect that has on young girls.

To recognise our tolerance and dignity in the face of these enduring limitations placed on us by language, only to witness, in stark comparison, the instant and absolute condemnation of misgendering transpeople (as no less than "dehumanising hatred"!) is to see the true extent of our oppression.

And that's before you realise that not only is this treatment of the different demographics - female and trans - revealingly inconsistent... but that the current ideology is systematically obscuring or diminishing our most precious, painfully recent gains: "Madam Speaker" / the "highest-earning businesswoman" / even "the women's boxing" - all no longer a source of undiluted pride or excitement (and they genuinely were for me, before this) as they could now be male...

Just as "she" and "woman" were gaining validity in the public sphere - associated no longer only with domestic stereotypes but with professional and leadership roles, and women's acceptance into traditionally male-dominated jobs, and I’m pretty sure that pronoun sharing started for an entirely different reason, that our workforce has become more diverse and that we aren’t all able to tell if a name is male or female.

Like others, I quite strongly disagree. In fact, I worry that this misperception risks of inadvertently re-writing history in yet another way that disadvantages women and girls.

One of the many distressing aspects of gender ideology, for me, is that women and girls have endured centuries of linguistic erasure without the slightest attention being paid to this.

We've tolerated, and continue to tolerate, the generic masculine (eg. "mankind"). We've been "misgendered" daily, in offices across the country, as the default masculine and sexist assumptions about professional hierarchies endure. Yes, we've seen a slow shift towards our recognition in language (eg. "chairwoman/person"). But we still use the patronymic, in most cases. And where language does distinguish us, it still, as often as not, sustains the weight of patriarchal oppression: in teaching, the diminutive "Miss" versus the authoritative "Sir" (yes, it does make a difference); in swearing, the astonishingly creative range of words for women versus the more limited range for men; in the media, the patronising use of "female" as a distinguishing marker of "otherness" - it's "The World Cup" versus "The Women's World Cup" / "the entrepreneur" (male, naturally) as opposed to "the female entrepreneur" - that marks us as different, as secondary to the default or norm. Think about the invidious effect that has on young girls.

To recognise our tolerance and dignity in the face of these ongoing limitations placed on us by language, only to witness, in comparison, the ready and absolute condemnation of misgendering transpeople as dehumanising "hatred", is to see the true extent of our oppression.

And that's before you realise that not only is this treatment of the different demographics - female and trans - revealingly inconsistent... but that the current ideology is systematically obscuring or diminishing our most precious, painfully recent gains: "Madam Speaker" / the "highest-earning businesswoman" / even "the women's boxing" - all no longer a source of undiluted pride or excitement (and they genuinely were for me, before this) as they could now be male...

Just as "she" and "woman" were gaining validity in the public sphere - associated no longer only with domestic stereotypes but with professional leadership roles, and traditionally male-dominated jobs (and competence, as opposed to an assumption of inferiority) in these contexts - they've promptly been appropriated to signify "gender". The very social construct behind our past invisibility is being used to erase us once again.

Our sex - its reality and history, and our associated oppression - is linguistically erased, on a collective level, once again.- they've been appropriated to signify "gender". Our sex - its reality and history, and our associated oppression - is linguistically erased, on a collective level, once again.

Edited

Great post!

It was again rammed home this past week with Elle Canada 2/8 ‘women breaking the glass ceiling ‘ being male people. Indeed one at least is rather abusive towards female people who reject that person’s demands to be accepted as being something they materially are not.

Celebrated. As exceptional women. Fuck it is grim, isn’t it.

Catiette · 02/09/2024 21:10

It's really upsetting.

As I wrote on my ballot paper (paraphrased):

1924: women denied a political identity (no comprehensive vote)
2024: women denied a political identity (no comprehensive name) 

But hey, we had those 90 years or so, didn't we?

Edited for Maths! 😁

Petitchat · 02/09/2024 22:55

ElleWoods15 · 01/09/2024 16:39

Or perhaps people telling you their pronouns are just asking for a basic level of respect.

I don’t get why you would actively want to misgender someone?

If I called a "transwoman" male, to my mind that would not be misgendering someone.
That would be telling the truth.
That would be stating a fact.

I don't get why you actively refuse to recognise the truth?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/09/2024 22:57

I don't find it respectful for people to compel my speech to make me use the English language in a way I disagree with.

IwantToRetire · 02/09/2024 23:22

I don't get why you actively refuse to recognise the truth

Its not quite the same but on the AIBU about not wanting trans women in toilets, the early comments all about how embarrassing feminism is transphobic.

But when you look at the voting numbers it is clear that women dont want trans women in women's toilets.

OP posts:
NonsuchCastle · 03/09/2024 04:36

ElleWoods15 · 01/09/2024 13:22

It just hasn’t though.

How are you (and I’m making an assumption you’re a woman, so do correct me if I’m wrong) prejudiced by the use of the word ‘birthing parent’, or by someone including their pronouns in their sign off, @MarieDeGournay ?

I think the problem many people have with such language is when it is mandatory. For example, If someone believes that a trans woman is not a woman, that person should not be forced to use "she" or "they" when referring to that trans woman. It might not be nice or compassionate but it's a very slippery slope to mandate terms of speech.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 07:53

I think we also need to stop thinking that ‘compassion’ has anything to do with the people who are demanding these pronouns. The support groups have so successfully detached being transgender from gender dysphoria that it may only apply to a very small minority of those who are identifying as having a transgender identity.

Yet, those who seek to shame those of us who reject this language demand, still attempt to use that compassion angle. Why? Because that is all they have. There never was a reason beyond ‘compassion’ to use preferred language.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/09/2024 08:26

@Catiette

Excellent post

Datun · 03/09/2024 09:59

@ElleWoods15 if you disagree that the use of terms like birthing parent don't damage women as a sex, either deliberately, or just as a result, why do we only routinely see these terms addressed to women?

You don't see men being addressed by their bodily functions. Sperm providing parent, penis holder, prostate haver.

We've even seen campaigns about cervical cancer and prostate cancer written by the same NHS trust, in the same font and style, with those about cervical cancer calling women cervix havers, and those about prostate cancer calling men, men.

And yes, 'educate yourself' is a transactivist cliche. It's been so overused it's positively hackneyed. Along with rights aren't pie, and disagreement is genocide.

Datun · 03/09/2024 10:04

Datun · 03/09/2024 09:59

@ElleWoods15 if you disagree that the use of terms like birthing parent don't damage women as a sex, either deliberately, or just as a result, why do we only routinely see these terms addressed to women?

You don't see men being addressed by their bodily functions. Sperm providing parent, penis holder, prostate haver.

We've even seen campaigns about cervical cancer and prostate cancer written by the same NHS trust, in the same font and style, with those about cervical cancer calling women cervix havers, and those about prostate cancer calling men, men.

And yes, 'educate yourself' is a transactivist cliche. It's been so overused it's positively hackneyed. Along with rights aren't pie, and disagreement is genocide.

If you want to know why this has happened, it's because it has been necessary for transactactivism to uncouple women from their biology. So that the term 'woman' is not dependent upon it.

It's a drive to make the very concept of womanhood unrelated to female biology in order that men can claim the term.

Munroe Bergdorf famously and publicly told women not to wear pussy hats on their own march, because centring female biology on a march for women was transphobic and exclusionary.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 10:40

I find it really surprising when people who declare they are well educated on a topic, so much so that they have the confidence to admonish and shame others who focus on evidence and fact based statements, don't have any depth of background knowledge regarding the issues they support.

This took me all of 2 minutes looking on google to find.

Guidance after guidance, lectures after lectures, graphic after graphic across the world of transgender rights activism using that exact phrase 'educate yourself'.

But, apparently, women using the term is 'patronising' and disrespectful? Fuck sake. When will the hypocrisy and double standards stop?

https://www.tuc.org.uk/resource/how-be-good-trans-ally-work

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/equality/resources/lgbtq-equality/how-to-be-a-trans-ally/

https://x.com/HRC/status/1726329556401815972

And not just UK/EU

https://www.queerevents.ca/education/transgender/trans-rights

https://prideresourcecenter.colostate.edu/trans-on-campus/supporting-transgender-people/

And to add, I am sure I am not the only woman who has been on the receiving end of masked protestors, mainly male, waving placards with the words and yelling and actual screaming to accompany the placards.

But... apparently.... women are the problem. As it always was.

x.com

https://x.com/HRC/status/1726329556401815972

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 10:41

I don't particularly find it surprising but I agree with your substantive point.

Snowypeaks · 03/09/2024 10:54

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 10:40

I find it really surprising when people who declare they are well educated on a topic, so much so that they have the confidence to admonish and shame others who focus on evidence and fact based statements, don't have any depth of background knowledge regarding the issues they support.

This took me all of 2 minutes looking on google to find.

Guidance after guidance, lectures after lectures, graphic after graphic across the world of transgender rights activism using that exact phrase 'educate yourself'.

But, apparently, women using the term is 'patronising' and disrespectful? Fuck sake. When will the hypocrisy and double standards stop?

https://www.tuc.org.uk/resource/how-be-good-trans-ally-work

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/equality/resources/lgbtq-equality/how-to-be-a-trans-ally/

https://x.com/HRC/status/1726329556401815972

And not just UK/EU

https://www.queerevents.ca/education/transgender/trans-rights

https://prideresourcecenter.colostate.edu/trans-on-campus/supporting-transgender-people/

And to add, I am sure I am not the only woman who has been on the receiving end of masked protestors, mainly male, waving placards with the words and yelling and actual screaming to accompany the placards.

But... apparently.... women are the problem. As it always was.

Edited

You are a one-woman search engine-cum-archive yourself!
🙌

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/09/2024 11:04

Snowypeaks · 03/09/2024 10:54

You are a one-woman search engine-cum-archive yourself!
🙌

Isn't she just. Flowers
That's what's needed. In the face of the ideological "TWAW and you're a bigot if you fail to comply" we need rational, evidenced information. Especially to counter the fear that the ideological extremists engender in ordinary women speaking out about women's rights and safeguarding children.

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