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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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3 questions for GC women

1000 replies

ChirpyFinch · 28/08/2024 00:27

As the title says, three questions for the women in this chat.

  1. Do you think the majority of people are gender critical, and why/why not?

  2. Globally, the right wing is more vocally gender critical than the left. They are also far more likely to be regressive on a range of women’s issues like abortion and anti-gay. Why do you think they agree with GCs on this one issue but disagree on so much else (if you think they do?)

  3. How many trans people do you estimate there are globally?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
Thebossofhim · 28/08/2024 10:25

DeanElderberry · 28/08/2024 10:21

Page 4 of mine is about gas ovens

Page 47 features a splendid array of cakes made from 10 shillings worth of ingredients, including eggs at three shillings and sixpence a dozen. That's 50p and 17.5p, young people.

1957 edition, twentieth million.

Its very much of its time

3 questions for GC women
MarieDeGournay · 28/08/2024 10:27

I missed all this! The whole thread has taken place today, the first post y ChirpyFinch was 00.27 hours, and I've just started reading it. Things move fast eh?

Blimey, what a load of straw-man/coat-trailing/look-how-clever-I-am from OP! I haven't seen anything quite that spectacular for quite a while.

Couldn't keep it up in the face of an onslaught of tactical battlefield recipes, though, could they?

I love Be-Ro. Be-Ro the She-ro, Vanquisher of Eejits, Defender of Reality, and Baker of Ace Cakes.
[I know Be-Ro was the name of the book not the girl, but poetic licence - I want to place her alongside the likes of Xena in my pantheon of she-roesSmile]

BabaYagasHouse · 28/08/2024 10:29

DeanElderberry · 28/08/2024 08:32

It was a tragic mistake to ever permit the word 'gender' to be used about a social and political issue (feminism) that was all about sex. Because gender is meaningless except as a feature of the grammar of some languages, it has become something project diverse meanings onto.

The adoption in the 1970s by some academic feminists of the word 'gender' to avoid using 'sex' has caused nothing but trouble.

PS, that is a criticism of 'gender'. A gender critical post.

Edited

Perfect!👨‍🍳💋

DeanElderberry · 28/08/2024 10:30

My Be-Ro book doesn't have any of that, just that splendid female role-model on the back. I have a newer one somewhere - must check it out later, but if I don't go and buy cat food soon there will be trouble later. I might even get some human food while I'm out.

Type2whattodo · 28/08/2024 10:37

I am GC. I used to be of the thinking that there was no harm in being kind and respecting someone's request to be called she even when patently obvious they were a he. As I've gotten older and more mature I see the harm caused by this be kind thinking. I also have 2 DD.
I also think right wing have nothing to do with feminism views.
I think most people are of be kind thinking as they literally have given zero thought to it.
Sex and gender are different. Sex is chromosome and physical. If you have a Y chromosome, you are male, either boy or man. This is not changeable. Gender is made up bullshit based on repressive sex stereotypes designed to keep women as lesser to men.
Woman is a physical reality based on Xx chromosomes. It can't be identified into.

I think an increasing number of girls are trying to identify out of the toxic world men have created for them with the likes of Andrew Tate and rape/porn culture.

I think an increasing number of porn-sick middle aged men are AGP but saying they are trans. I think an increasing number of assholes are exploiting this to win women's prizes in sport/literature /business / whatever.

StealthSpinach · 28/08/2024 10:47

CautiousLurker · 28/08/2024 09:48

…but if anyone has a good cheesecake recipe, please share…

I have a Polish cheesecake recipe that has a potato in the ingredients! It is delish…

Igmum · 28/08/2024 10:47

cariadlet · 28/08/2024 03:03

If the OP is genuinely interested in what GC means:

Conservatives: women should do the washing up.

TRAs: if you're doing the washing up then you must be a woman.

GC: restrictive, outdated gender stereotypes are bullshit and everyone should do the washing up.

Love this! Thank you Cariadlet am definitely swiping it Grin

Igmum · 28/08/2024 10:50

@SpidersAreShitheads for keto recipes generally just substitute crushed almonds for flour. Particularly lush in chocolate cakes. Is coconut sugar permitted? If so that's good and opens up some Om bar chocolate bars for you.

TempestTost · 28/08/2024 11:01

cariadlet · 28/08/2024 03:03

If the OP is genuinely interested in what GC means:

Conservatives: women should do the washing up.

TRAs: if you're doing the washing up then you must be a woman.

GC: restrictive, outdated gender stereotypes are bullshit and everyone should do the washing up.

Do you think conservatives really think men shouldn't be involved in things like washing up?

I sometimes wonder where MN women live that they think things like that. Have they just never met a conservative, or is a kind of thing where they see women conservatives but somehow block out the information they should be getting from that?

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 28/08/2024 11:01

I don't believe that anyone believes you can change sex. Anyone I've ever challenged on it has clarified pretty quickly that although TWAW they really understand that they're not really in actual fact real women. Even the guy I know whose chiselled his jaw surely knows he's a man with severe mental health conditions.

Gender is entirely performative.....and regressive.

Let's not forget Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that all vegetarians antisemitic?

Before beginning to ask how many people world wide are trans, you'd have to do some pretty intense definition of terms.

Anyone know maids of honour? Pastry cases with a drop of jam at the bottom and a sponge top? Divine!

Helleofabore · 28/08/2024 11:02

DeanElderberry · 28/08/2024 09:41

I know, that's the normal human response to him and his works, but he is critical to the understanding of a lot of the cobblers spoken and written about this newly invented concept 'gender' in the last half century.

Maybe knowing just how tainted its root is might make some of its enthusiasts have a little think.

I know. But once you have read his works, I am hoping to not have to revisit them again.

Like Foucault.

Helleofabore · 28/08/2024 11:02

WarriorN · 28/08/2024 09:42

I suppose Jammy dodgers identify as jam drops @Helleofabore

In your dreams! 😁

candlewhickgreen · 28/08/2024 11:03

TempestTost · 28/08/2024 11:01

Do you think conservatives really think men shouldn't be involved in things like washing up?

I sometimes wonder where MN women live that they think things like that. Have they just never met a conservative, or is a kind of thing where they see women conservatives but somehow block out the information they should be getting from that?

It's a generalisation but social conservatives tend to believe in gender roles.

k1233 · 28/08/2024 11:10

In all honesty I could care less about GC.

What do I want - a safe, single sex space/place where a person with a penis is not able to rape me. In competitive sport - a category for people with different skeletal and muscle development ie women that allows them to fairly compete against their peers.

Research on different musculature based on sex
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D3809%26context%3Decuworks2022-2026%23:~:text%3DData%2520from%25202875%2520men%2520and%25202452%2520in%2520110%2520studies%2520were,percentages%2520for%2520Type%2520I%2520fibers.&ved=2ahUKEwj1h_f1t5eIAxVNkVYBHSmuL84QFnoECBQQBg&usg=AOvVaw16juaZhEb7GnBf6lKO0NkE

CocoapuffPuff · 28/08/2024 11:15

Helleofabore · 28/08/2024 06:57

Grandma made the BEST jam drops. I think I made them at school too from the Day to Day Cookery book for home ec. I still use that book.

But Brits don’t know what a jam drop is.

Late to this thread, but these jam drops look suspiciously like scottish raspberry buns that I spent my childhood stuffing myself silly with.

UK recipe here, for anyone who doesn't bake with cups (horribly, inaccurate things re baking).

bakingwithgranny.co.uk/recipe/buns/rasp-buns/

capitanaamerica · 28/08/2024 11:18

LiterallyOnFire · 28/08/2024 02:22

Gosh @GrumpyPanda - that does have a "sweep half the larder into the bowl" vibe. Maybe they wanted it to count as "five a day"?

I always find American spices and herbs interesting. They invent these blends and then act as though they're single spices, almost. Blows my little British mind, but I suppose it makes sense if you have a regular rota of recipes.

This is true (and actually kind of excellent) but I have to say that the USA did not invent this concept. See for example the French Bouquet Garni, Fines Herbs, Herbes de Provence. Mexican Tajín and Adobo. Italian Cacio e Pepe. Chinese Five Spice. Ethiopian Berbere. Middle Eastern Za’atar and Baharat. Iranian Advieh. North African Harissa, Dukkah, Tabil, and Ras el Hanout. South African/Portuguese Piri Piri. Japanese Dashi and Shichimi Togarashi. Indian Garam Masala and various “curry” blends …

I’m making myself hungry.

KielderWater · 28/08/2024 11:25

Who was it who said ‘right wing men think women are private property, left wing men think women are public property’?

TempestTost · 28/08/2024 11:26

candlewhickgreen · 28/08/2024 11:03

It's a generalisation but social conservatives tend to believe in gender roles.

I am not so sure about that. I think in a lot of cases it's a fabrication the left tells itself rather than understanding why conservatives tend to push back less on fairly conventional arrangements in marriages.

That's not the same as saying that men and women need to fulfill conventional roles. There are plenty of conservative women with careers and who aren't slaving away in the kitchen. And conservative men who help out at home or are very involved with their kids.

(My grandfather, who was very conservative and in many ways a very manly man is a good example. He was the one (a long with the sons) who did the dishes in that house. He also washed the kitchen floor once a week, because he didn't like seeing my grandmother working on her hands and knees. In the evening they'd watch TV and he would always make up a tray with their tea and biscuits and bring it down for her as well. Now lots of men don't do these things, but that isn't a right/left wing thing. It's because a lot of people don't care to put themselves out if they can get away with it.)

One of the things I think a lot of people on the left miss about the conservative approach to gender roles though is that they tend to place a higher value on some traditionally female roles - particularly the role of the mother and homemaking - than people on the left. Not just valuable, but something that it takes time and commitment and isn't just an afterthought. Many on the left see these as things that are not only not so important as a job would be, but they see them as demeaning, unless people are being paid (but even then they tend to be wc people, so there can be a snob element, anyone can do this work.)

What that means is that a woman staying home with her young kids in a conservative setting isn't seen as less valuable or worthy than her having a paid position - and so if she would like to do that, it's seen as the responsibility of the father/husband to facilitate that by earning a good income. And women who come from a background like that and who have kids don't feel obligated to have a career or job unless they really want to or need to financially.

As for motherhood, a conservative would likely say that's not a "gender" role, but that being the mother (biological) has some different elements than being a father, especially in the early years when pregnancy and childbirth and breastfeeding factor into the equation. So they don't see that as imposing some kind of sexist arbitrary role but as a recognition and accommodation of differernt basic biological realities in reproduction.

DrBlackbird · 28/08/2024 11:27

To those of you who now have multiple deletions at the start of the thread, any explanation for those from MN? @NoBinturongsHereMate or @LiterallyOnFire ? Was it posting insulting recipes?? Someone was busy reporting everyone last night.

Deliberate misrepresentation trying to imply that ‘gender criticals’ believe all trans to be ‘mentally ill’ can be in the spirit of MN but not recipes? Odd.

Rymeswithpunt · 28/08/2024 11:27

ChirpyFinch · 28/08/2024 00:38

Defined as being critical of the belief that someone can change their sex and/or gender.

This is just an exercise in curiosity. I don’t think anyone cares what I think - because I know how forums on the internet work - but I am interested to know what others think.

How are you defining 'gender' and how and why do you think that should take precedence over the material reality of sex?

candlewhickgreen · 28/08/2024 11:27

KielderWater · 28/08/2024 11:25

Who was it who said ‘right wing men think women are private property, left wing men think women are public property’?

Andrea Dworkin

KielderWater · 28/08/2024 11:32

I know, that's the normal human response to him and his works, but he is critical to the understanding of a lot of the cobblers

I do like a good cobbler. I make a mean lamb cobbler but also partial to sweet ones like blackberry and apple. Makes a change from crumble or a pie.

BabaYagasHouse · 28/08/2024 11:33

Type2whattodo · 28/08/2024 10:37

I am GC. I used to be of the thinking that there was no harm in being kind and respecting someone's request to be called she even when patently obvious they were a he. As I've gotten older and more mature I see the harm caused by this be kind thinking. I also have 2 DD.
I also think right wing have nothing to do with feminism views.
I think most people are of be kind thinking as they literally have given zero thought to it.
Sex and gender are different. Sex is chromosome and physical. If you have a Y chromosome, you are male, either boy or man. This is not changeable. Gender is made up bullshit based on repressive sex stereotypes designed to keep women as lesser to men.
Woman is a physical reality based on Xx chromosomes. It can't be identified into.

I think an increasing number of girls are trying to identify out of the toxic world men have created for them with the likes of Andrew Tate and rape/porn culture.

I think an increasing number of porn-sick middle aged men are AGP but saying they are trans. I think an increasing number of assholes are exploiting this to win women's prizes in sport/literature /business / whatever.

Yes. Exactly.

And most of the world and its institutions have got themselves into a right old muddle with it all and don't know how to backtrack- even if some places might be beginning ro see they might need to. Because it's all been so successfully and deeply embedded.

The potential for feeling like, or being seen to, 'take rights away' from a group- even if it's because its gradually being realised that there is actually a huge conflict of human rights that has been created, (as well as impossible to resolve loopholes for expoitation), is a completely new and very uncomfortable phenomena to deal with on such a large scale I believe? I'm not a historian, but I don't think we have been anywhere quite like this before?

I think many people have huge cognitive dissonance around this; and the labelling of the pushback against basing societal structuring on gender rather than sex, is comfortingly simple to label as far right. It makes it easier to double down in the face of the dawning realisation that this hasn't been a civil rights cause of the same ilk as previous ones- in that real world harm is being brought to other vulnerable groups through it, that were not originally envisaged by supporters.

I find it hard to imagine how this will eventually play out!

Is this a derail? A non-cake derail? (Though I'm as much a baker as a historian)

Apologies if so.

candlewhickgreen · 28/08/2024 11:34

TempestTost · 28/08/2024 11:26

I am not so sure about that. I think in a lot of cases it's a fabrication the left tells itself rather than understanding why conservatives tend to push back less on fairly conventional arrangements in marriages.

That's not the same as saying that men and women need to fulfill conventional roles. There are plenty of conservative women with careers and who aren't slaving away in the kitchen. And conservative men who help out at home or are very involved with their kids.

(My grandfather, who was very conservative and in many ways a very manly man is a good example. He was the one (a long with the sons) who did the dishes in that house. He also washed the kitchen floor once a week, because he didn't like seeing my grandmother working on her hands and knees. In the evening they'd watch TV and he would always make up a tray with their tea and biscuits and bring it down for her as well. Now lots of men don't do these things, but that isn't a right/left wing thing. It's because a lot of people don't care to put themselves out if they can get away with it.)

One of the things I think a lot of people on the left miss about the conservative approach to gender roles though is that they tend to place a higher value on some traditionally female roles - particularly the role of the mother and homemaking - than people on the left. Not just valuable, but something that it takes time and commitment and isn't just an afterthought. Many on the left see these as things that are not only not so important as a job would be, but they see them as demeaning, unless people are being paid (but even then they tend to be wc people, so there can be a snob element, anyone can do this work.)

What that means is that a woman staying home with her young kids in a conservative setting isn't seen as less valuable or worthy than her having a paid position - and so if she would like to do that, it's seen as the responsibility of the father/husband to facilitate that by earning a good income. And women who come from a background like that and who have kids don't feel obligated to have a career or job unless they really want to or need to financially.

As for motherhood, a conservative would likely say that's not a "gender" role, but that being the mother (biological) has some different elements than being a father, especially in the early years when pregnancy and childbirth and breastfeeding factor into the equation. So they don't see that as imposing some kind of sexist arbitrary role but as a recognition and accommodation of differernt basic biological realities in reproduction.

By definition social conservatives are traditional in that they define roles based on sex or gender essentialism.

I understand that you think your grandad is the bees knees because he occasionally brought in some biscuits or lifted a finger but social conservatives uphold traditional family structures and sexual relations.

Although we should all value the role of mothers (and fathers), our lives shouldn't be defined by our biology alone.

DrBlackbird · 28/08/2024 11:36

candlewhickgreen · 28/08/2024 11:03

It's a generalisation but social conservatives tend to believe in gender roles.

It’s more nuanced than that I think - or possibly simpler - in that it wasn’t so long ago that unions, an organisation understood as politically ‘left’ but run largely by men, firmly believed that women’s role was in the home raising children etc. and not taking jobs away from the men. Many unions largely run by men are still misogynistic and uphold gendered stereotypes that are harmful to women.

So small c social conservatism crossing the political divide yes, not political Conservatives.

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