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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce asks very pertinent questions about SEEN.

155 replies

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 19:11

I share her concerns and questions, because we are creating more and more special interest groups without knowing how they operate , what they do, and what will be their future motivations.
Particularly in the police.

"What can the newly founded SEENs (Sex Equality and Equity Networks) learn from the history of workplace affinity groups?"
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-89/

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TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/08/2024 20:03

"And finally, in the long term, what would success look like, and what’s the exit strategy? It would be awful to create a bunch of new Stonewalls, organisations that have achieved their policy goals but are too venal and self-serving to shut up shop and go home."

So would I, lets hope the SEEN groups don't fall down a rabbit hole as well. 🙄

WarriorN · 23/08/2024 20:26

I'm not keen on them. Someone I know pointed out it's more of the same equality/ DEI type stuff. Which didn't work the first time round.

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 20:28

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/08/2024 20:03

"And finally, in the long term, what would success look like, and what’s the exit strategy? It would be awful to create a bunch of new Stonewalls, organisations that have achieved their policy goals but are too venal and self-serving to shut up shop and go home."

So would I, lets hope the SEEN groups don't fall down a rabbit hole as well. 🙄

Yes.
One concern re the police for example, it could be a perfect place to enable old skool sexism networks ubder the guise of sex realism anti woke.

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TempestTost · 23/08/2024 20:31

We don't really have these kinds of workplaces groups where I am, at least not in the same way you guys see them in the UK.

I find it interesting to see how they work, buttbh I have shared a lot of the same concerns, they seem like a fundamentally bad kind of idea to me, albeit with great intentions. But it seems almost inevitable that they will be used as a way of wielding power against other groups in the workplace.

Apollo441 · 23/08/2024 20:35

I think they only exist because of the LBGTQ+ lobby groups. If they become reasonable then the need for SEEN ceases.

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 20:37

@TempestTost
We are drowning in them here, in every endeavour, particularly the Arts.
They often seem like a mini cults run by mediocrities to boost their credibility and legacy.

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Omlettes · 23/08/2024 20:40

Apollo441 · 23/08/2024 20:35

I think they only exist because of the LBGTQ+ lobby groups. If they become reasonable then the need for SEEN ceases.

Joyce adresses that issue, what if they dont 'go away'
And you or I have no idea about their motives or agenda, because they are secretive.
Did you read the article because it seems you are just avoiding the point.

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PaleBlueMoonlight · 23/08/2024 20:40

They are good because they give people confidence in those workplaces. They are incredibly hard work, and emotionally draining to run (due to the animosity towards them and attacks), so I would be surprised if they continue once normality has resumed. However, I could see them fulfilling the role of women's networks, most of which have become gender networks.

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 20:41

@@PaleBlueMoonlight
Helen makes very good points that arent being adressed

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TempestTost · 23/08/2024 20:44

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 20:37

@TempestTost
We are drowning in them here, in every endeavour, particularly the Arts.
They often seem like a mini cults run by mediocrities to boost their credibility and legacy.

I keep wondering how much work time and money goes into that stuff, rather than actually doing whatever the company is supposed to do?

Even her comment about the early versions doing stuff like raising money for company Pride floats doesn't sit that well with me. Even with an old fashioned benign Pride, why is that something work related? All it seems to do is signal that employees are all expected to have the same views about things.

TempestTost · 23/08/2024 20:54

I think people need to remember that all institutions, formal or not, are essentially levers for power. That's what they are for, and it's extremely useful. It's the only way we can have societies with thousands of people in them, rather than tribes of 100.

But they are also dangerous because they can allow small groups immense control and power of many other people. The history of the British form of government is really a long lesson in creating integrated institutions that are effective but circumscribed to protect against abuse.

I think one of the effects in the 20th century of human rights formulations, and what we might call the "progressive" political position, has created all kinds of new institutions without adequate protections. If people remember back when Yaniv was harassing those women, he was using the human rights tribunals to do this.

There are people, a lot of them, who seem completely unable to conceive that people might use these "good" institutions for their own ends. You see a similar thing on threads about disability or accomodation or mental illness, where substantial numbers seem oblivious to the possibility that there could potentially be fairly widespread abuses.

People who want power use whatever the institutions are, replacing old ones with new ones does not somehow mean they are now purified. Often they are actually more vulnerable.

lcakethereforeIam · 23/08/2024 21:06

I read this article in the Critic, I think I posted it at the time on another thread. I think it's pertinent to this one too

https://thecritic.co.uk/identity-politics-has-undermined-policing/

I can see the value in having SEEN to balance and counteract the TQ+ excesses. However, just as Stonewall arguably once had a purpose they need to not outlive their need.

Identity politics has undermined policing | David Green | The Critic Magazine

Sir Mark Rowley has denied Elon Musk’s claim that the Met has been guilty of two-tier policing. He insists that the force acts impartially, without fear or favour. That may be his sincere intention…

https://thecritic.co.uk/identity-politics-has-undermined-policing

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 21:07

@TempestTost Well thats what she is saying isnt it.

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NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/08/2024 21:40

One vast difference between Stonewall and SEEN is money.

Stonewall is a standalone organisation with a big fundraising side and paid staff - who want to keep the cash flowing. SEEN is people doing extra work within their existing organisations, in return for vast amount of hassle and as far as I know no cash. Much less incentive to keep going after achieving the original purpose.

TempestTost · 23/08/2024 21:40

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 21:07

@TempestTost Well thats what she is saying isnt it.

Yes, that's what I understand her to be saying.

TempestTost · 23/08/2024 21:41

NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/08/2024 21:40

One vast difference between Stonewall and SEEN is money.

Stonewall is a standalone organisation with a big fundraising side and paid staff - who want to keep the cash flowing. SEEN is people doing extra work within their existing organisations, in return for vast amount of hassle and as far as I know no cash. Much less incentive to keep going after achieving the original purpose.

SW didn't always have that kind of money though.

Fenlandia · 23/08/2024 21:49

Apollo441 · 23/08/2024 20:35

I think they only exist because of the LBGTQ+ lobby groups. If they become reasonable then the need for SEEN ceases.

I agree. I do get Joyce's and PP's points about mission creep and outstaying your original need, but the fact is, employers didn’t protect their employees' perfectly legal views on sex and gender. Too many people have had to turn their lives upside down to get justice through tribunals, and are still having to do so.

WaverleyOwl · 23/08/2024 21:52

Look, I haven't read what Helen Joyce has written (but I will), but I'm a member of SEEN in Health. I'm a NHS staff member.

For me, it's a place that I can have honest, productive conversations about gender ideology where it has currently taken over health care.

SIH is not a charity, they are a staff network. They are not an 'institution'.

They are there to counteract the EDI networks and the LGBTQI+ staff networks that are already in place. They are there to give a voice to people that disagree with the policies that are getting pushed through under the banner of 'inclusion'.

To support staff that don't know where to turn when gender ideology takes precedent over patient care.

They are there, at the moment, to give balance to the prevailing narrative that inclusion means exclusion and that men can be women in places where it matters.

Maybe I am missing some huge red flag, but I can't see what they are doing as anything other than balancing and positive at the moment.

Fenlandia · 23/08/2024 22:00

TempestTost · 23/08/2024 21:41

SW didn't always have that kind of money though.

True, but are NGOs and corporate donors ever going to be shovelling money at SEEN groups the way they did with Stonewall?

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 23/08/2024 22:06

Didn't Sex Matters host a SEEN event recently? This tweet from 22 July says they did

x.com/sexmattersorg/status/1815427083977326743?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Surely some of the things they'd have discussed at the event at SM is exactly what's in the article - which is dated 24 July.

Did they want to "inspire each other into action" or are SM having doubts? Because if they are, it would be best to be up front about it and this article feels a bit snide. Imagine you'd been to that event. How would you feel now, being almost Or effectively (depending on your POV) warned not to get too cocky? Pretty shit, I should think.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 23/08/2024 23:07

The much more obvious parallel to Stonewall is Sex Matters itself. Are they going to close down once this fight is won?

As PP have said, people who are sex realists are scared in the workplace currently and I think the main thing SEEN groups do is provide a sense of safety in numbers - the gender bullies find it more difficult to pick on and attack larger groups of people. These people aren't paid (unlike Sex Matters) and I suspect most of those joining SEEN would be delighted once they're no longer necessary because it's taking up time they really don't have. SEEN are a defence mechanism. I suppose it could go wrong, but it seems to me that we're a long way from needing to worry about that and mostly the sex realists have a lot of other things to do and are fighting for the right to talk about biology freely with great reluctance. Not because they're pushing the issue, but because they want to be free to say they believe the evidence suggests 2+2=4 even when there are a group of very determined ideologues chanting 2+2=5 (with no evidential basis).

Most workplaces still aren't safe for sex realists. Most of us don't have the resources (mental or financial) to go to employment tribunal. Most workplaces still don't have protections for sex realists. And it's even madder in workplaces where sex matters for healthcare and safeguarding - where the safety of end users is being actively undermined. It would be nice if we worried about that - which is happening right now - rather than whether SEEN are going to get out of control in 5 years.

TheMamaBear · 23/08/2024 23:24

It does feel like Sexmatters don't want SEEN encroaching on their turf too much.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 23/08/2024 23:26

TheMamaBear · 23/08/2024 23:24

It does feel like Sexmatters don't want SEEN encroaching on their turf too much.

Yes, it seems to me you're probably right.

Maybe they should get SEEN to advocate for workplaces to sign up to the Sex Matters index of best workplaces for women's rights.

Oh wait....

Omlettes · 23/08/2024 23:43

@Apollo441 "They are there, at the moment, to give balance to the prevailing narrative that inclusion means exclusion and that men can be women in places where it matters.

Maybe I am missing some huge red flag, but I can't see what they are doing as anything other than balancing and positive at the moment'
It would be helpful to read it first.
Its strange how people rush to comment and defensiveness without reading the article under discussion.

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Apollo441 · 23/08/2024 23:48

SEEN have only just started in response to protecting staff from bullying EDI and LGBTQ+ organisations who regularly misrepresent the law. It gives people the chance to group together and mutually support each other. Previously individuals were alone and often hounded out of their positions. They are entirely voluntary. It is far too early to start questioning their motivations, which at this point should be blindingly obvious.