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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paleolithic female figurines

85 replies

ArabellaScott · 14/08/2024 22:39

Just spent some time reading up on ancient female figurines, and thought maybe FWR would find some of the material interesting.

https://archive.org/details/shamansqueensfig0000nels

Shamans, queens, and figurines : the development of gender archaeology

"Sarah Nelson, recognized as one of the key figures in studying gender in the ancient world and women in archaeology, brings together much of the work she has done over three decades into a single volume. The book covers her theoretical contributions, her extensive studies of gender in the archaeology of East Asia, and her literary work on the subject. Included with the selections of her writingtaken from diverse articles and books published in a variety of placesis an illuminating commentary about the development of her professional and personal understanding of how gender plays out in ancient societies and modern universities and her current thinking on both topics"--

https://archive.org/details/2744349/page/n1/mode/2up

Self-Representation in Upper Paleolithic Female Figurines

Interesting paper suggesting that the exaggerated forms of many female figurines may be explained by the viewpoint of a woman looking down at her body.

'This study explores the logical possibility that the first images of the human figure were made from the point of view of self rather than other and concludes that Upper Paleolithic ''Venus'' figurines represent ordinary women's views of their own bodies. Using photographic simulations of what a modem female sees of herself, it demonstrates that the anatomical omissions and proportional distortions found in Pavlovian, Kostenkian, and Gravettian female figurines occur naturally in autogenous, or self-generated, information. Thus the size, shape, and articulation of body parts in early figurines appear to be determined by their relationship to the eyes and the relative effects of foreshortening, distance, and occlusion rather than by symbolic distortion. Previous theories of function are summarized to provide an interpretive context, and contemporary claims of stylistic heterogeneity and frequent male representations are examined and found unsubstantiated by a restudy of the originals. As self-portraits of women at different stages of life, these early figurines embodied obstetrical and gynecological information and probably signified an advance in women's self-conscious control over the material conditions of their reproductive lives. '

Women in prehistory
by
Ehrenberg, Margaret R

'The search for prehistoric woman. Anthropological evidence. The behavior of other animals and primates. Archaeological evidence. -The earliest communities. The role of women in human evolution. Women in modern and Paleolithic foraging societies. Matriarchy, patriarchy, or equality. Mother goddesses or Venus figurines? -The first farmers. The discovery of agriculture. The expansion of agricultural communities. -The Bronze Age. Was Minoan Crete a matriarchy? Burials, grave goods and wealth in north-west Europe. A trade in women? Rock art in the Alps and Scandinavia. -The Celtic Iron Age. Domestic organisation in Iron Age Britain. Decoration on Hallstatt pottery and bronze vessels. -Literary sources. Prophets and priestesses. Descent and marriage patterns. Women in war. Tribal chiefs and commanders in battle '

https://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/notvenusfigurines.html

'They are not Venus Figurines' by Max Dashu

'The term “Venus figurine” is also widely used, which imposes an alien interpretative framework, not only because of its eurocentrism, but because it projects a narrow presumption of “sex object” onto iconography that has a far broader range of meanings and ceremonial uses. Some will say, “But Venus was a goddess — what’s wrong with that?” Few people are even aware that the naming itself originates from the Marquis de Vibraye’s sardonic description of a small paleolithic statuette found in 1864 on his Laugerie-Basse estate in Dordogne. The classically-educated aristocrat called her a "Vénus impudique,” seeing her as “immodest” in contrast to the Roman archetype of Venus Pudica.

Self-Representation in Upper Paleolithic Female Figurines : LeRoy McDermott : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

This study explores the logical possibility that the first images of the human figure were made from the point of view of self rather than other and concludes...

https://archive.org/details/2744349/page/n1/mode/2up

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:15

This is my kinda thread. Thanks so much.

I'm reading Amazons by Adrienne Mayor, which explores the history of the real-life tribeswomen of the Steppes, who are the inspiration for the Amazon myths. Turns out it's all grounded in fact.
She writes that the women of some of the tribes would use a horse's big toe to make votive figurines. Or could just have been self-portraits. But a horse's big toe is sort of shaped like a woman, apparently!

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:19

The book by Margaret Ehrenberg looks really interesting. I'll see if it's in the Kindle library. Fingers crossed.

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:21

Gah. Doesn't seem to be.

HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 00:23

I recently saw these in the Archeological Museum in Crete. Thought they were wonderful.

Paleolithic female figurines
Paleolithic female figurines
HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 00:26

Explanation

Paleolithic female figurines
Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:49

Robert Graves was right about everything.

Omlettes · 15/08/2024 03:11

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:49

Robert Graves was right about everything.

A truer thing was never said.

Omlettes · 15/08/2024 03:12

I too love this thread.

DeanElderberry · 15/08/2024 06:42

It's too early in the morning for me to read anything challenging, even the OP, but I very much appreciate the suggestion that I read somewhere (as I say, haven't read the OP, never mind the links, yet, so don't know is it in there) that 'Venus' figures might specifically represent post-menopausal women. Not pregnant 'fertility' goddesses, but women who have survived and achieved age, knowledge, skills, wisdom - and enough weight to carry them through winter.

Really important people, possibly turned into divinities.

ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 07:34

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 00:19

The book by Margaret Ehrenberg looks really interesting. I'll see if it's in the Kindle library. Fingers crossed.

You can 'borrow' from archive.org and possibly download different versions?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 07:35

HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 00:23

I recently saw these in the Archeological Museum in Crete. Thought they were wonderful.

Glorious!

OP posts:
Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 08:22

ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 07:34

You can 'borrow' from archive.org and possibly download different versions?

Ok, thanks. I will look into that.

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 08:32

I've joined. What an amazing resource.

AnnaMagnani · 15/08/2024 08:33

I went on holiday to Greece this year and going around museums it is fascinating to see the earliest pottery is about female fertility.

And then the warlords arrive, sorry bronze age heroes Hmm, and suddenly it's all about the men.

Treaclewell · 15/08/2024 08:39

Well, looking down at me, I don't see past my breasts, so wouldn't get the swollen belly, and certainly not the feet. But I am interested in a female interpretation of the Willendorf model..
I once worked out what she is missing.
No feet, no hands, no mouth, no eyes, She has no personhood, no means of expression, and she can't leave, or defend herself.
If she does represent a woman's view of herself, she's already swallowed the man's view.

ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 09:21

Snowypeaks · 15/08/2024 08:32

I've joined. What an amazing resource.

OH YES!!! You are in for a treat! Lifetimes could be spent digging about in there!

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 09:25

A wee Neolithic one just because she is Scottish and I love her.

www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-and-research/archives-and-collections/properties-in-care-collections/object/figurine-3800-bc-2500-bc-neolithic-links-of-noltland-26222

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 15/08/2024 09:45

HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 00:26

Explanation

...a gesture of prayer, greeting or blessing

Not how I saw this. Looks more like "Oh, for Goddess's sake! Can't he even do the simplest jobs properly?"

HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 09:48

JellySaurus · 15/08/2024 09:45

...a gesture of prayer, greeting or blessing

Not how I saw this. Looks more like "Oh, for Goddess's sake! Can't he even do the simplest jobs properly?"

I agree, that is kind of why I loved them 😀.

JellySaurus · 15/08/2024 09:56

Interesting paper suggesting that the exaggerated forms of many female figurines may be explained by the viewpoint of a woman looking down at her body.

In an age before mirrors, fair enough. Looking down at yourself the swell out over breasts and hips is exaggerated. But I don't entirely agree. When I was heavily pregnant, and also for a while after giving birth, what I saw in the mirror was those Stone Age female figurines. (It made me feel rather good about myself, that my unattractive-by-modern-standards appearance was actually something desirable worthy of worship) If others, women or men, wanted to create images of fertility, I could well believe that they modelled pregnant or immediately post-natal women. Especially in an era when being fat meant you had plenty of food, so it was seen very positively.

Ducal · 15/08/2024 09:57

HotCrossBunplease · 15/08/2024 00:23

I recently saw these in the Archeological Museum in Crete. Thought they were wonderful.

I was there this week!

The thread also needs to see this video which I went looking for after seeing the snake goddess in the museum too 🙂

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/qFRPBsJoZpc?si=Ys5b2H_JVLYL0Qy5

ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 10:29

JellySaurus · 15/08/2024 09:56

Interesting paper suggesting that the exaggerated forms of many female figurines may be explained by the viewpoint of a woman looking down at her body.

In an age before mirrors, fair enough. Looking down at yourself the swell out over breasts and hips is exaggerated. But I don't entirely agree. When I was heavily pregnant, and also for a while after giving birth, what I saw in the mirror was those Stone Age female figurines. (It made me feel rather good about myself, that my unattractive-by-modern-standards appearance was actually something desirable worthy of worship) If others, women or men, wanted to create images of fertility, I could well believe that they modelled pregnant or immediately post-natal women. Especially in an era when being fat meant you had plenty of food, so it was seen very positively.

I have to admit I haven't read the whole paper yet, but there is also the point that just looking at another woman, pregnant or not, would quickly give one a differently perspectived view.

But then, if these are deliberately done as self portraits using that intensely close viewpoint, they are another thing.

There is a roughly contemporary artist who does similar with either paintings or photographs - all done from her own pov and all turning her body into a sort of landscape. Buggered if I can remember her name, though.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/08/2024 10:30

As far as fatness goes, yes, some cultures do see the fatter the better for women in terms of desirability, beauty, etc.

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DeanElderberry · 15/08/2024 10:44

Quite reasonably, for societies that experience periods of food shortage.

The lack of face, hands etc is interesting too - a reduction of woman to a comfortably fat (post-menopausal) body, or an expression of the belief deep in a lot of very much post-paleolithic religions, that you can not /must not look on the face of god, and of the idea expressed by Teresa of Avila that god has no body but ours, no hands, no feet, no voice. . . . ?

Domoda · 15/08/2024 10:49

Have a look at the Suppressed Histories page on Facebook, it's all about this kind of stuff...women's 'history', it's brilliant

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