Paleolithic female figurines

[ArabellaScott]

Just spent some time reading up on ancient female figurines, and thought maybe FWR would find some of the material interesting.

https://archive.org/details/shamansqueensfig0000nels

Shamans, queens, and figurines : the development of gender archaeology

"Sarah Nelson, recognized as one of the key figures in studying gender in the ancient world and women in archaeology, brings together much of the work she has done over three decades into a single volume. The book covers her theoretical contributions, her extensive studies of gender in the archaeology of East Asia, and her literary work on the subject. Included with the selections of her writingtaken from diverse articles and books published in a variety of placesis an illuminating commentary about the development of her professional and personal understanding of how gender plays out in ancient societies and modern universities and her current thinking on both topics"--

https://archive.org/details/2744349/page/n1/mode/2up

Self-Representation in Upper Paleolithic Female Figurines

Interesting paper suggesting that the exaggerated forms of many female figurines may be explained by the viewpoint of a woman looking down at her body.

'This study explores the logical possibility that the first images of the human figure were made from the point of view of self rather than other and concludes that Upper Paleolithic ''Venus'' figurines represent ordinary women's views of their own bodies. Using photographic simulations of what a modem female sees of herself, it demonstrates that the anatomical omissions and proportional distortions found in Pavlovian, Kostenkian, and Gravettian female figurines occur naturally in autogenous, or self-generated, information. Thus the size, shape, and articulation of body parts in early figurines appear to be determined by their relationship to the eyes and the relative effects of foreshortening, distance, and occlusion rather than by symbolic distortion. Previous theories of function are summarized to provide an interpretive context, and contemporary claims of stylistic heterogeneity and frequent male representations are examined and found unsubstantiated by a restudy of the originals. As self-portraits of women at different stages of life, these early figurines embodied obstetrical and gynecological information and probably signified an advance in women's self-conscious control over the material conditions of their reproductive lives. '

Women in prehistory
by
Ehrenberg, Margaret R

'The search for prehistoric woman. Anthropological evidence. The behavior of other animals and primates. Archaeological evidence. -The earliest communities. The role of women in human evolution. Women in modern and Paleolithic foraging societies. Matriarchy, patriarchy, or equality. Mother goddesses or Venus figurines? -The first farmers. The discovery of agriculture. The expansion of agricultural communities. -The Bronze Age. Was Minoan Crete a matriarchy? Burials, grave goods and wealth in north-west Europe. A trade in women? Rock art in the Alps and Scandinavia. -The Celtic Iron Age. Domestic organisation in Iron Age Britain. Decoration on Hallstatt pottery and bronze vessels. -Literary sources. Prophets and priestesses. Descent and marriage patterns. Women in war. Tribal chiefs and commanders in battle '

https://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/notvenusfigurines.html

'They are not Venus Figurines' by Max Dashu

'The term “Venus figurine” is also widely used, which imposes an alien interpretative framework, not only because of its eurocentrism, but because it projects a narrow presumption of “sex object” onto iconography that has a far broader range of meanings and ceremonial uses. Some will say, “But Venus was a goddess — what’s wrong with that?” Few people are even aware that the naming itself originates from the Marquis de Vibraye’s sardonic description of a small paleolithic statuette found in 1864 on his Laugerie-Basse estate in Dordogne. The classically-educated aristocrat called her a "Vénus impudique,” seeing her as “immodest” in contrast to the Roman archetype of Venus Pudica.

Could be that the torso is where the magic happens so that's the important bit? Gradually over time the less germane parts of the body are left off and what we have is a symbol. Maybe?

Love this thread but don't know the quote?

yes - having been to Pompeii last week I concur!

Was a tiny bit surprised so many many many penises but no vaginas (or anything even remotely like a 'sheela na gig') - even in the 'forbidden' room in the archaeological museum full of depictions people having lots of sex or men with enormo-penises

Joan Semmel or Jenny Savile? Both great

Robert Graves managed to excise a great deal of information about women in Greek myths - very male-centric. Try: Pandora's Jar, by Natalie Haynes (Picador) for a more feminist investigation.

Joan Semmel! Thank you, you star.

Maybe correlates with the frequency of the ubiquitous cock graffiti with the rarer sightings of crude vagina art on bus stops?

girlwhowearsglasses

It's not a quote, just a reference to several books which Robert Graves (poet, academic and author) wrote. He was convinced that the influx of patriarchal cultures into Europe was a fairly recent occurrence and that previously women had enjoyed higher status than men. This goddess or mother worship is hardwired into our culture and has never been completely overwritten. He considers that venerating the Goddess is the natural order and because of the subjugation of women and the abandonment of her worship, a sort of psychological trauma has been inflicted on both women and men. There's a lot more to it than that, and he demonstrates his theories by decoding myths and legends and using the language of poetry.
The idea that women were higher status than men in the distant past doesn't sound like a radical idea nowadays because some fantasy fiction authors have taken the idea and run with it, but when he wrote, people thought it was ridiculous. I believe the discovery of the mountain of goddess/female figurines from prehistory or before written history had not happened when he was writing.

I would recommend you read his books, partly because I am explaining badly and not doing him justice, but mainly because they are among the most original and thought-provoking books you will ever read. The White Goddess is the one I started with.

Yes, I think that's Max Dashu, isn't it? It's a fantastic page.

Beautiful Joan Semmel picture.

I’ve always thought that the lack of features is because the goddess is unknowable, or that it represent ‘all women'. Who knows.
if you like novels about this period there is a good trilogy which starts 'the Years the Horses Came', by Mary Mackey, about the female goddess culture and the arrival of the male culture invaders, set in France and the Black Sea area. Very enjoyable books.

Oh thanks - will investigate

Roman sexuality seems to have been based overwhelming on being the penetrating partner. And the person being penetrated has v low status. So a lot of penises everywhere.

I'd recommend the Rest is History podcast episodes on Hadrian and Antinuous on this, and also for an eye popping number of Latin terms I certainly did not learn for GCSE.

Any nonsense on Mumsnet is worth it for tips like this!

Does Mary Beard have owt to say on this?

There were lots of uteruses in there though - seeing what they look like was a revelation to me! Like a kind of wrinkly woodlouse :)

😂

I’m not convinced all these pottery or stone naked female bodies are goddesses or that there was a mythical pan-matriarchy before ancient civilisations emerged.

These artefacts have only survived because they are durable, not because they are necessarily special or meaningful.

For all we know they are portable Neolithic pornography given the many erotic cave paintings that also existed from 37,000yrs ago showing women having sex or naked with vulvas on display. (they don’t put these cave paintings in the textbooks for children ;))

Cave art like these

To add some humour to the thread.
A funny article on cave paintings from the Onion (famous fake news site - nothing they write is real or correct or even remotely plausible)

enjoy
https://www.theonion.com/newly-discovered-cave-paintings-suggest-early-man-was-b-1819576393

@Summerhillsquare I know this is sacrilege but I don't enjoy Mary Beard's books/programs.

I did nearly knock her off her bicycle once - saw her just in time in my wing mirror- but I swear this is not related.

LoremIpsumCici · Today 14:29
I’m not convinced all these pottery or stone naked female bodies are goddesses or that there was a mythical pan-matriarchy before ancient civilisations emerged.

These artefacts have only survived because they are durable, not because they are necessarily special or meaningful.

What did they make all the male figurines out of, I wonder? 😉

We'll never know for sure, and calling it a pan-matriarchy may be pushing it, but I think there is enough evidence now that women have not always been "the second sex" and that there was a takeover - at different times in different places and to different degrees - which was associated with beginning to live in settled communities.

Going back to my book, what is fascinating about the real-life Amazons (Scythian women) is how equal their societies were. This was favoured by the fact that they were part of nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes and the equalising effect of practically living on horses. They were around 5'6, so a bit above average height, but not massively. They were just normal women trained from an early age to hunt and fight. A girl was not able to marry (or it might just be "have sex", can't remember) until she had killed a male enemy. Imagine that.
They had relationships with men, they birthed kids, they nursed their children, they fought to defend their home territory and to gain new territory and hunted for food. It sounds like an amazing life. They started young, carried on fighting after becoming mothers if they enjoyed it, and always hunted. Some of the graves of warrior women contained skeletons of women in their 50s and 60s! Women doing everything that men did but on their terms and in their own way.

has the thread referenced Marija Gimbutas yet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas

She was the originator of a lot of the scholarship around this

That name hasn't been referenced so far from what I recall - but I'm only about a quarter of the way through. It's definitely the same geographical area.

There's a great book called the prehistory of sex that I read at university a looooong time ago. Covered a lot of this sort of thing including a whole chapter on the venus figurines and how interpretations have changed over time.