Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

1000 replies

hellotowel · 14/08/2024 22:32

https://x.com/GCAntiFarRight/status/1823790909462602205

"We, the undersigned, are deeply disturbed that populist messages particularly targeting Muslims have gained traction among significant numbers of social media accounts associated with the gender critical movement."
Read and sign our statement below.
https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right/

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

Since the horrific murders in Southport on 29 July, the UK has seen an alarming outbreak of far-right violence, with organised gangs targeting mosques and setting fire to asylum hostels. It is clea…

https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Wenzles · 18/08/2024 13:10

Jane Clare Jones is nothing but a bully to women, sadly KJK is simply her latest target.

She should be ashamed of herself.

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:10

I do understand how being "in the trenches" for any length of time can polarise opinions and feelings. However, some of the delusional, paranoid thoughts, expressed on this thread, will do very little to further the debate.
Anyone who attends a Tommy Robinson led rally is doing rather more than "being adjacent", it is giving the message that you agree with him. That means being racist, anti immigrationand all that goes with that, if that is your position, then fine, but expect others to not agree.
Those who believe that all followers of Islam, in Britain, are misogynistic are, thankfully, wrong. Those who use "grooming gangs" as an excuse to be racist obviously have no knowledge of how the prostitution of girls and young women worked, prior to this most recent iteration, or indeed the ethnic origins of most punters.

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:12

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 18/08/2024 12:50

For a long time, Owen has thought that women are utterly irrelevant.
He's the living embodiment of bro's before hoe's.

That sort of misogyny can be rife among gay men.

Referring to such 'awareness gaps' as misogynistic, though, is a bit of a stretch, ...and is just inflammatory. Mind you, OJ is a master in the art of inflammation himself...he's built a career out of it.

That's the point, though, isn't it..those with careers and vested interests in a certain sort of political branding are the people most caught up in these flame wars and the associated politics of exclusion.

Dygger · 18/08/2024 13:22

I was at Cardiff Filia and attended the 'elephant in the room' session with WPUK. That was the day I understood how the purity pissing contest was going to go. I went in a fan of WPUK and came out disillusioned. It's Puritanism, an authoritarian battle to establish who can be the most pious.

I managed to avoid much of the hoo-ha because I was away and not bothering with SM. Now I'm back and I'm sad to see women I know who've been caught in this nasty little 'Quick, sign here or you'll look like you support KJK/racism' trap. I can tell from my WA messages that I'm supposed to be congratulating them for signing. I haven't done it and I'll wait to see whether I'm to be shunned as a result. A couple of people I know were asked to sign but weren't given enough time to read the letter carefully so didn't and now feel they've dodged a bullet. I know others who signed in a hurry and now wish they hadn't.

I was due to book my ticket for the LGB Alliance conference in London. I can't really justify the £400+ it costs in travel, accommodation and ticket and as Simon Edge* is headlining I think I'll avoid. He used to make fun of the virtue-signallers, now he seems to be leading them.

The worst thing of it all is that I belong to a couple of GC women's groups that offer GC social events for women to talk and learn and build friendships. We also campaign locally — stalls in town centres, leaflets, attending Pride and handing out information on the dangers of puberty blockers, that kind of thing. It takes guts and commitment and I appreciate every women who puts herself on the line. The group is open to all GC women, regardless of political or religious affiliation and we have quite a few Let Women Speak supporters (including some Muslim women) who want to do something active in their local area. Some of them are politically more to the right than me, but they're team players and don't lecture the rest of us about their politics. We accept that we come from different positions and unite for the good of women. I've learned tolerance from them and some of them have changed their stance on a number of things, including racism, since being involved with us. Whether we can hold it all together now remains to be seen. I hope we're all sophisticated enough and nuanced enough to keep it working, despite the Puritans' desire that we disavow anyone who doesn't meet their purity standards.

*Simon Edge (author of the GC comic novel The End of the World is Flat) is the apparent author of and first signatory of the letter.

Dygger · 18/08/2024 13:23

Ineverlose · 18/08/2024 12:12

Yes, that account that Lorelei provides reveals exactly who Lorelei is - a person who hops into every single dispute with maximum drama and complete self-absorption

You would say that, wouldn't you?

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 13:23

Yes, I qualified what I meant by 'movement' upthread.

And within this diverse group of people, there are some who want to publicly distance themselves from racism, anti-Muslim and populist sentiments.

That's okay, isn't it? People going about things in the way that seems best to them.

BackToLurk · 18/08/2024 13:25

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 12:46

I don't personally think Owen jones is a " misogynist". I simply think he's so far gone down the rabbit hole of far Left/progressive thinking that he cannot tell his arse from his elbow. He's typically sanctimonious and full of hs own moral virtue, whereas 'misogynist' suggests an active campaign of hatred.

Throwing around labels such as 'racist' or 'misogynist' does not represent a very sophisticated analysis of anything and it serves only to further alienate people.

Edited

Whether you think OJ is a misogynist or not isn’t relevant to the point. If someone accused him of that and you said no he’s not you would be defending him, specifically from that accusation. If people say “TR is far right” and you say “no he isn't” then you would be defending him from that accusation. If people believe TR to be far right and they see people defending him against that accusation then it’s understandable that they see those defending him as being apologists for the far right.

But the statement goes beyond that. It’s also talking about promoting far right narratives (or however they phrase it). That might include tweeting something like ‘you get jailed for criticising allah now”, rather than the more accurate but possibly more boring “you get jailed for pleading guilty to violent disorder these days”

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 13:29

Dygger · 18/08/2024 13:22

I was at Cardiff Filia and attended the 'elephant in the room' session with WPUK. That was the day I understood how the purity pissing contest was going to go. I went in a fan of WPUK and came out disillusioned. It's Puritanism, an authoritarian battle to establish who can be the most pious.

I managed to avoid much of the hoo-ha because I was away and not bothering with SM. Now I'm back and I'm sad to see women I know who've been caught in this nasty little 'Quick, sign here or you'll look like you support KJK/racism' trap. I can tell from my WA messages that I'm supposed to be congratulating them for signing. I haven't done it and I'll wait to see whether I'm to be shunned as a result. A couple of people I know were asked to sign but weren't given enough time to read the letter carefully so didn't and now feel they've dodged a bullet. I know others who signed in a hurry and now wish they hadn't.

I was due to book my ticket for the LGB Alliance conference in London. I can't really justify the £400+ it costs in travel, accommodation and ticket and as Simon Edge* is headlining I think I'll avoid. He used to make fun of the virtue-signallers, now he seems to be leading them.

The worst thing of it all is that I belong to a couple of GC women's groups that offer GC social events for women to talk and learn and build friendships. We also campaign locally — stalls in town centres, leaflets, attending Pride and handing out information on the dangers of puberty blockers, that kind of thing. It takes guts and commitment and I appreciate every women who puts herself on the line. The group is open to all GC women, regardless of political or religious affiliation and we have quite a few Let Women Speak supporters (including some Muslim women) who want to do something active in their local area. Some of them are politically more to the right than me, but they're team players and don't lecture the rest of us about their politics. We accept that we come from different positions and unite for the good of women. I've learned tolerance from them and some of them have changed their stance on a number of things, including racism, since being involved with us. Whether we can hold it all together now remains to be seen. I hope we're all sophisticated enough and nuanced enough to keep it working, despite the Puritans' desire that we disavow anyone who doesn't meet their purity standards.

*Simon Edge (author of the GC comic novel The End of the World is Flat) is the apparent author of and first signatory of the letter.

I was at that meeting too and was staggered that a discussion about the impact of the far right on feminism became interpreted as some some of veiled attack on KJK. None of the speakers mentioned her, or alluded to her, but there was a 1000 post thread on MN saying something similar to this one - that any mention of the Far Right must be about KJK and couldn't possibly be about, um, the influence of the Far right on feminism.

I've said before that the stand out part of that meeting for me was Pragna Patel talking about organising against fundamentalism, the far right ,and anti-women agendas, saying that the far right is a danger to black and brown women.

And here we are.

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:30

BackToLurk · 18/08/2024 13:25

Whether you think OJ is a misogynist or not isn’t relevant to the point. If someone accused him of that and you said no he’s not you would be defending him, specifically from that accusation. If people say “TR is far right” and you say “no he isn't” then you would be defending him from that accusation. If people believe TR to be far right and they see people defending him against that accusation then it’s understandable that they see those defending him as being apologists for the far right.

But the statement goes beyond that. It’s also talking about promoting far right narratives (or however they phrase it). That might include tweeting something like ‘you get jailed for criticising allah now”, rather than the more accurate but possibly more boring “you get jailed for pleading guilty to violent disorder these days”

Only in the world of Black and white thinking......which is typical of this type of exclusionary and closely guarded political alliances that is being perpertrated by this thread and that letter.

As far as I can see it is just a few people who are 'amplifying' far right politics on this thread.....and I'm not one of them. The whole thread seemed to be started with the intention of implying that people who believe in biological sex and don't ike children being transed in the name of Queer Theory are 'aligned' with Tommy Robinson. It was clearly meant to be provocative and divisive.

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:37

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 13:29

I was at that meeting too and was staggered that a discussion about the impact of the far right on feminism became interpreted as some some of veiled attack on KJK. None of the speakers mentioned her, or alluded to her, but there was a 1000 post thread on MN saying something similar to this one - that any mention of the Far Right must be about KJK and couldn't possibly be about, um, the influence of the Far right on feminism.

I've said before that the stand out part of that meeting for me was Pragna Patel talking about organising against fundamentalism, the far right ,and anti-women agendas, saying that the far right is a danger to black and brown women.

And here we are.

Some people believe that there can only be one type of feminism; and that feminism has to mean certain sorts of things, and they jealously guard that interpretation of feminism.

What also about the nature of 'far left' fundamentalist feminism on women?
What influence do you personally think that the 'far right' has been having on 'feminism'? Can you describe this impact?

Wenzles · 18/08/2024 13:37

I was due to book my ticket for the LGB Alliance conference in London. I can't really justify the £400+ it costs in travel, accommodation and ticket and as Simon Edge* is headlining I think I'll avoid. He used to make fun of the virtue-signallers, now he seems to be leading them.

Bev Jackson, founder of LGBA was one of the original 'undersigns' too, they were heavily involved with this letter from the looks of it.

timenowplease · 18/08/2024 13:37

I was at that meeting too and was staggered that a discussion about the impact of the far right on feminism became interpreted as some some of veiled attack on KJK. None of the speakers mentioned her, or alluded to her, but there was a 1000 post thread on MN saying something similar to this one - that any mention of the Far Right must be about KJK and couldn't possibly be about, um, the influence of the Far right on feminism.

Jane Clare Jones has just said the pervious missive and this letter are both about KJK.

"My tweet isn't deflection Lorelei. You claimed what was wrong with the letter was that it didn't give evidence and names. I don't believe that is what you think is wrong with it. I don't believe you because when you were previously confonted with an essay that did name the person concerned and gave reciepts you completely freaked out, we rewrote it to try and address your concerns, then, you still weren't happy because what you claimed were the things that bothering you wasn't what was actually bothering you, then you asked for your name to removed, and then you went out and went 'I'm nothing to do with this please don't hate me for it.' The problem with that essay was that it criticised KJK. The problem with the statement is that it distances itself from KJK. Whether she is named or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that nobody is allowed to do that. And anyone that tries will be punhsihed."

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:38

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:37

Some people believe that there can only be one type of feminism; and that feminism has to mean certain sorts of things, and they jealously guard that interpretation of feminism.

What also about the nature of 'far left' fundamentalist feminism on women?
What influence do you personally think that the 'far right' has been having on 'feminism'? Can you describe this impact?

Also, what of fundamentalist Islam and its impact on women's rights? When we talk of fundamentalism must we only talk about Christianity and white men's religions?

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:42

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:38

Also, what of fundamentalist Islam and its impact on women's rights? When we talk of fundamentalism must we only talk about Christianity and white men's religions?

What commonly happens, is that fundamental Islam is taken to be all Islam
Conflating the two is like conflating fundamentalist Christianity with all Christianity and its just as erroneous.

BackToLurk · 18/08/2024 13:42

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:38

Also, what of fundamentalist Islam and its impact on women's rights? When we talk of fundamentalism must we only talk about Christianity and white men's religions?

If only we could talk about Islam. Oh…https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2019/3/26/tbc-waiting-for-recordings?format=amp

#014 FiLiA in conversation: Khadija Khan and Sadia Hameed on Religious Fundamentalism, Part 1

https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2019/3/26/tbc-waiting-for-recordings?format=amp

Imnobody4 · 18/08/2024 13:44

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:10

I do understand how being "in the trenches" for any length of time can polarise opinions and feelings. However, some of the delusional, paranoid thoughts, expressed on this thread, will do very little to further the debate.
Anyone who attends a Tommy Robinson led rally is doing rather more than "being adjacent", it is giving the message that you agree with him. That means being racist, anti immigrationand all that goes with that, if that is your position, then fine, but expect others to not agree.
Those who believe that all followers of Islam, in Britain, are misogynistic are, thankfully, wrong. Those who use "grooming gangs" as an excuse to be racist obviously have no knowledge of how the prostitution of girls and young women worked, prior to this most recent iteration, or indeed the ethnic origins of most punters.

Anyone who attends a Tommy Robinson led rally is doing rather more than "being adjacent", it is giving the message that you agree with him.
Only in your world - ever heard of Mccarthyism.

timenowplease · 18/08/2024 13:45

Imnobody4 · 18/08/2024 13:44

Anyone who attends a Tommy Robinson led rally is doing rather more than "being adjacent", it is giving the message that you agree with him.
Only in your world - ever heard of Mccarthyism.

Does that include the press, police etc?

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:50

Imnobody4 · 18/08/2024 13:44

Anyone who attends a Tommy Robinson led rally is doing rather more than "being adjacent", it is giving the message that you agree with him.
Only in your world - ever heard of Mccarthyism.

Do you not think it shows support, to go to a rally? If you are going to protest, then obviously your support is not implicit, if you go and perform what message are you trying to put across? If you go to any rally are you not, usually, showing your support for the subject of the rally. If you ho to a feminist gathering are you not saying that you support feminism? Back in the 70's attending a reclaim the night march in Leeds was pretty much seen as supporting women's rights to go out and remain unmolested, it was never seen as support for the men/ man who killed women.

RhannionKPSS · 18/08/2024 13:51

For what it’s worth I think it’s a bloody appalling letter; spiteful, illogical and what gives them the right to be the arbiters of who and what is “ right wing?” It also appears to have been written by 2 blokes, both members of the Green Party…

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:54

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:42

What commonly happens, is that fundamental Islam is taken to be all Islam
Conflating the two is like conflating fundamentalist Christianity with all Christianity and its just as erroneous.

As far as i can see, in mainstream Christian churches men and women pray together, side by side, and women can now be preachers, vicars, pastors.....None of this is the case in mainstream Islam. When I visit Turkey, I am not permitted into the same part of the mosque as men, and I must cover my head. There are also strong male guardianship rules which apply to women, in the way that no longer exists in mainstream Xianity.

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:57

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:54

As far as i can see, in mainstream Christian churches men and women pray together, side by side, and women can now be preachers, vicars, pastors.....None of this is the case in mainstream Islam. When I visit Turkey, I am not permitted into the same part of the mosque as men, and I must cover my head. There are also strong male guardianship rules which apply to women, in the way that no longer exists in mainstream Xianity.

Edited

We often call for women only spaces, presumably we only want some spaces to be women only. Who gets to choose?

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:58

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:50

Do you not think it shows support, to go to a rally? If you are going to protest, then obviously your support is not implicit, if you go and perform what message are you trying to put across? If you go to any rally are you not, usually, showing your support for the subject of the rally. If you ho to a feminist gathering are you not saying that you support feminism? Back in the 70's attending a reclaim the night march in Leeds was pretty much seen as supporting women's rights to go out and remain unmolested, it was never seen as support for the men/ man who killed women.

Who here is going to Tommy Robinson rallies?

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 13:58

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 13:57

We often call for women only spaces, presumably we only want some spaces to be women only. Who gets to choose?

Certainly men should not be controlling which spaces women can have for themselves, or which spaces they should be excluded from.

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 14:01

How many Muslim women want mixed prayers?
The Catholic church still has no women priests, think we are a good way off a female pope. Christianity did use to worship separately, hence the lady chapel.

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/08/2024 14:03

Dumbo12 · 18/08/2024 14:01

How many Muslim women want mixed prayers?
The Catholic church still has no women priests, think we are a good way off a female pope. Christianity did use to worship separately, hence the lady chapel.

The purpose of the Lady Chapel is not about the seclusion of women, but about the veneration of the Virgin Mary. The Virgin Mary has a central role in catholicism, in particular.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.