BBC finally acknowledges something may be amiss in Olympics women's boxing

[Janie143]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko Good quotes from Dr Hilton.

In other news: BBC reports water is wet.

That journo is the 'gender and identity' correspondent. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for they.

What next? People Who Like Tunnocks Correspondent?

I archived that just in case it mysteriously changes as the day wears on.

archive.ph/CnVLV

If the boxers had CAIS no one would have even thought to test them. It’s such nonsense.

This is a really excellent article Op. I understand why some argue that sex is not clearly XX XY but I think it is also clear that our boxers do not fit the category of XX. The article is a good medical direction but what it doesn't do is talk about coaches out there who are specifically searching for DSD people who can win medals without having to be tested by the IOC. I would guess those days are beginning to pass. The furore this year should ensure that all categories of sport are very careful how they assess their female competitors.

Those at the top of the IOC should seriously re-think their positions. What this uproar might do is ensure our new government steer well clear of self id in any form

Regulating elite sports, which typically rely on male-female binary categories in competition, is complicated because the biology of sex itself is complex and not exclusively binary

Erm, if it's not binary, then presumably a third (or fourth, or fifth....) sex exists? I read it on Mumsnet and it's stuck with me ever since - if this is the case, where are the Nobel prizewinners for finding this third sex?

Differences in a developmental pathway don't change the binary. Why is the writer pretending otherwise?

If sex is not binary as they state, then no one with a DSD is eligible for either male or female competition. In reality sex is indeed binary and these athletes are ineligible because they are male.

Look over there, it's a squirrel!

I do not have a PhD in molecular genetics in elite sports.
I do, however, have O level biology.

Sex is binary.

“The most recent woman we diagnosed with having XY chromosomes was 33,” says Claus Højbjerg Gravholt - an endocrinology professor at Aarhus University who spent the past 30 years dealing with DSD.

His patient came to see him because she had no idea why she couldn’t get pregnant.

“We discovered she didn’t have a uterus, so she would never be able to have a baby. She was absolutely devastated.”

Prof Gravholt says the implications that come with questioning one’s gender identity can be destabilising - and he often refers his patients to a psychologist.

“If I showed you her photo, you would say: that’s a woman. She has a female body, she is married to a man. She feels like a female. And that is the case for most of my patients.”

When Prof Gravholt asked her why she didn’t consult a doctor about not getting periods, she said there was another older woman in her family who never menstruated - so she thought it wasn’t abnormal.”

All of this is obfuscation because none of it applies to our two athletes. It’s just included to make readers think that this DSD might be what these athletes have.

Good article by BBC standards, apart from the sentence claiming sex isn’t binary.

What it fails to mention is the fact it’s not just about unfair advantage, it’s about women’s safety being jeopardised. Female boxers are risking brain damage, paralysis and death if they step in the ring with someone with male punching power.

‘The most recent woman we diagnosed with having XY chromosomes was 33,” says Claus Højbjerg Gravholt - an endocrinology professor at Aarhus University who spent the past 30 years dealing with DSD.

His patient came to see him because she had no idea why she couldn’t get pregnant.

“We discovered she didn’t have a uterus, so she would never be able to have a baby. She was absolutely devastated.”

But this has NOTHING to do with chromosomes ! This poor woman doesn’t have a womb , so she cannot carry a baby. That is completely different from having XY chromosomes, which means you are a bloke. It’s like saying that if you are blind, you are not a person, you are a mole .

I really hope this patient managed to find a doctor who knows the basics of human anatomy and physiology .

Why did the guy at the end throw in the guff about measuring people's breasts and clitorises? You definitely don't play sport with your clitoris.

He thinks if we did sex chromosome screening and had to determine after that if it was a male with evidence of virilisation, ie testosterone benefit and not CAIS, that would be mean.

It is a good article and does try to explain the variety of DSDs. If someone has CAIS (maybe the danish women diagnosed late) they have XY chromosomes but NO physiological response to testosterone so could fairly compete as a woman in sport. If they have 5-ARD (like Caster) then they have XY chromosomes and do get an advantage from testosterone so can't compete. And there are other even weirder DSDs which may be unclear.

Even if the two boxers have XY chromosomes, we don't know which DSD they might have or how that would impact performance. This is complex.

BBC article: ‘We do know that the process of sex determination starts when a foetus is developing. Most females get two X chromosomes (XX), while most males get an X and a Y chromosome (XY).
Chromosomes influence a person's sex’.

Jesus wept.

I can determine Sofia Bettiza didn’t concentrate during biology classes. That’s a very obtuse, muddled way of writing.
She is contradicting even BBC bitesize on sex determination and twisting facts to suit her agenda. But then she’s the ‘gender and identity’ reporter. The job title sounds like a mad sorting-hatter from Alice in Wonderland.

Yes, this patient is likely to have CAIS, not 5ARD.

I’m quite concerned that someone who looks unambiguously female can get to 33 and not seek out some sort of medical advice re: the lack of a period. Presumably the relative who never menstruated is ann older relative and hadn’t sought medical adevice either?

I’m pretty sure the NHS used to say to contact to your GP if no period by 16 but the current guidelines seem to have lowered it to 15 (or at 13 if no signs of puberty at all).

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/periods/starting-periods/

Clear, plain language medical messaging is so important for women’s health globally.
We really shouldn’t be tying ourselves in additional ‘menstruating people’ ‘birthing parent’ knots.
.

XY people with DSDs whose bodies cannot respond to testosterone do not develop a masculine appearance at puberty.

It seems very unlikely that they would both be in their respective finals if they weren’t able to benefit from testosterone at all.

But as a general point, the chromosome cheek swab should be a screening test. Anyone who comes back with an XY would then require further investigation, but those with XX would not.

This would cut the testing costs mentioned in the article tremendously, especially as unscrupulous coaches would no longer be incentivised to scout for 5ARD kids and thus the percentage of athletes who fail the initial screening and require the more expensive tests would diminish over time.

I would have thought that if we are at the stage of measuring penises then we know we are dealing with a male that has gone through male puberty and is virilising at least some testosterone. In my view affected people shouldn't be in the female category whatever the measurements.

Interesting also that the article seems to completely pass over the fact that there are many many signs of a person having gone through male puberty, and where a person is found to be XY those other signs would surely be the indicator that further testing was needed and could potentially be the things that are tested.

but NO physiological response to testosterone so could fairly compete as a woman in sport.

As has come up frequently I don’t think this is true. A person with CAIS has a significant advantage in never having to deal with periods or any of the hormonal changes related to that. It’s not as much of an advantage as testosterone influenced body but it’s still a big advantage to never have to alter training or competition. Many athletes have spoken about how periods have ruined their chances at certain events. CAIS athletes never have to worry about this. There are links to potential increased injury risk related to periods. Not a risk for CAIS athletes.

I really don’t like the “XY is male, but CAIS is ok” argument.

“But this has NOTHING to do with chromosomes !”

“the most recent woman we diagnosed with having XY chromosomes was 33,”

This patient’s lack of a uterus was because of their chromosomes - they have XY chromosomes so they should have developed as a male. Their male chromosomes meant that they didn’t develop female reproductive organs (ovaries, uterus). But their DSD meant their body didn’t complete the male development pathway in the way it should have, and their external genitalia developed as a vulva and vagina, instead of a penis.

Exactly, you don’t need to measure anything. If you’re virilised, it’s obvious.

I don’t like it either (CAIS people seem to be taller than XX women and have the longer arm span to match) but I remain somewhat open minded about CAIS athletes pending further research.

5ARD is already a clear no (after all we’ve learned from Caster Semenya’s court case and the other 5ARD track athletes).

Girls can be born without a uterus (discovered due to lack of menarche at puberty) due to MRKH (another DSD) but they have XX chromosomes (and no testosterone related sporting advantage) so aren’t part of the sports DSDs discussion..

The whole thing is simple. Cheek swab for sex determination. Testosterone can be looked at when they do spot drug tests that they do anyway.

There should be a dedicated counselling service for those athletes who discover that they have DSDs. It must be devastating for those affected - I expect that is very few by Olympic stage.