Womens Olympic boxing in the future

[CocoapuffPuff]

I've been mulling over this and I'm hoping I'm wrong.

From what i can see, the Olympic committees have banned the IBA from regulating Olympics boxing, permanently.

Earlier, the IOC abdicated responsibility for ensuring eligibility to the sporting associations. But they've banned this particular one. So now nobody oversees eligibility in boxing.

The IOC accept paperwork without question in boxing. It says M or F on the passport = good enough for the Olympycs, with regards boxing (where they've banned the safeguarding via the sport association).

Qualifying for the Olympics is, I believe, a matter of being selected by your country. No heats, no eliminations prior.

The IBA still oversees other international events. The 2 individuals concerned are banned, permanently as far as I know, from competing in the female category in the IBA events. But the Olympics allow them to compete.

Banned from international competition except for the Olympics.

I assume the IBA will continue to test future athletes to ensure eligibility. Banning those who fail the tests from IBA supervised events such as the world champs

So we've got a possible scenario where, at some future Olympic games, ALL women's boxing competitors may be banned by the IBA from the women's competition because of chromosomal irregularities. Never boxed internationally. Never competed against each other. Never been heard of before.

It's a bit doomsdayish I know, but it's possible under the current system, isn't it?

@CocoapuffPuff not sure about this. The IOC won't have Boxing in 2028 unless they have a body which looks after boxing and sets the rules. I thought World Boxing were in the frame for that. They will then set the rules.

This bit caught my attention in your post:

'So we've got a possible scenario where, at some future Olympic games, ALL women's boxing competitors may be banned by the IBA from the women's competition because of chromosomal irregularities. Never boxed internationally. Never competed against each other. Never been heard of before.'

There is a Trigonometry interview with Sharron Davies MBE s where she talks about the testosterone fuelled atheletes in her day who turned up and no-one had ever met of raced against and they won the medals and then disappeared. A conveyer belt of young women drugged up to get medals and many now with serious health issues. That (back then) and this (the situation around the 'female' boxers of the 2024 Olympics) is not one that helps the atheletes. Any of them. Its about government glory.

Having been accused of bias, bad behaviour and poor governance I am interested in what the IBA press conference today will say about all this.

Qualifying for the Olympics is, I believe, a matter of being selected by your country. No heats, no eliminations prior.

This isn't the case. There are requirements for qualifying dependant of the sport, the sports governing body and the country's own requirements.

So the IBA will be replaced? There will be some oversight beyond the IOC? That's hopeful at least.
Selection criteria is a mystery to me, hence my vagueness. I googled but each sport has its own pathway and rules, it seems.
I've no particular interest in boxing but it seems to have veered wildly off track this time. I don't think it's been handled at all well.

@CocoapuffPuff the strategy within the IOC seems to be to agree some other body to oversee each of the individual sports and blame any decisions on them.

This is interestingly what I understand the new Government intends in sorting this - the individual sporting bodies will create and police their own policies. We can see that for things like darts and pool this has led to these bodies caving in and agreeing to allow trans males to compete in women's tournaments even when they may have originally said that this was women only.

Its couched as 'leaving this to the experts for each sport'. The reality is that each body is small enough that activists can easily sway decisions. One day that may be GC activists I suppose? Bur currently the TRAs are the shoutiest and also the ones who pull on heartstrings more easily.

Boxing isn't going to be part of 2028 Olympics as it stands due to a huge fallout between the IOC and the boxing governing body (gender testing was a factor in this but there are several other issues too).

For the IOC it's not about allowing anyone with an F in their passport to compete. That's a policy they have adopted this year because they do not trust the IBA, who have been totally lacking in transparency about the reasons for banning the athletes. This is why we still do not actually know Kherif's test results. We are all assuming her chromosomes are XY and she has a DSD. There is not actually any evidence for that because the IBA has not provided it. The IBA have actually thrown the IOC under a bus in this respect. (The IOC have handled it terribly too).

Boxing need to appoint a new federation to regulate themselves in order for the IOC to readmit them, but it's not looking likely this will be in place for the LA games.The IOC are idiots but I think even they will ensure any new boxing federation has a clear line on gender eligibility, they have 8 years to sort this out.

We are all assuming her chromosomes are XY and she has a DSD. There is not actually any evidence for that because the IBA has not provided it.

The IBA have stated it, and they also say that they made the IOC aware and they had access to view the tests. A journalist says he has seen them and Khelif is XY.

The IBA would say that though, remember they're in the midst of a bitter breakdown of relations with the IOC and will say anything to shift the blame. The IOC are saying they haven't seen evidence. No one knows who is lying here. I'm not defending the IOC btw - both parties are awful.

It appears that irs 2 governing bodies bickering, with all athletes caught in the middle.
Does anyone know how long a cheek swab would take to process? Couldn't all athletes affected just have this test and clarify the matter once and for all?

Couldn't all athletes affected just have this test and clarify the matter once and for all?

Sharron Davies, who knows far more about the Olympics than I do, thinks so:

'How anyone looks should not be the issue. A simple sex screening test. Took me 2 mins in 1976. Cotton bud wiped on the inside of your cheek. Female athletes voted 82% in favour of keeping it in 1996. The IOC still stopped it so why ask?'
https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1819076377234362602

I don't know how long it takes to process but, given that it's a one-off test I find it hard to believe it's anything like as onerous as the constant drug testing, and it certainly appears to be less invasive.

You do have to wonder why it was stopped by the IOC - it certainly doesn't sound like it was out of consideration for female athletes.

The IBA would say that though, remember they're in the midst of a bitter breakdown of relations with the IOC and will say anything to shift the blame. The IOC are saying they haven't seen evidence. No one knows who is lying here. I'm not defending the IOC btw - both parties are awful.

I believe the journalist, and the tests won't have been done in someone's kitchen.

@Ereshkigalangcleg who is the journalist? I've been following the story but not seen this & genuinely interested.

Hang on I'll try to find it, someone might beat me to it.

Alan Abrahamson

x.com/alanabrahamson/status/1820036924452618281?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

muckrack.com/alan-abrahamson/articles

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1147420/iba-ioc-letter-khelif

From the article:

"An IBA technical document, effective May 13, 2023, says this: “‘Women/Female/Girl’ means an individual with chromosome XX. For this purpose, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA Competitions.”
It also says, in section 4.2, “To determine the gender, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test which will be conducted by IBA in cooperation with the selected laboratory personnel.”
A prior version – effective February 9, 2023 – holds no such references.
The 2023 women’s world championships were held in March.
In May 2022, during the IBA women’s world championship in Istanbul, Lin and Khelif underwent chromosome tests, which were processed locally at a lab.
IBA minutes from March 25, 2023, the day before that tournament closed, indicate the results of the 2022 worlds tests “were received only upon the conclusion of the event, hence the athletes were not disqualified back then.”
Again, the next world championships would be in March 2023 in New Delhi. Why were both athletes allowed to take part?
“Another test was not possible to conduct when the athletes were outside IBA control until they arrived to New Delhi,” the minutes read.
In New Delhi, another test for each, “to reconfirm the findings of the initial test, which it did,” according to the June 2023 letter the IBA sent to the IOC.
The New Delhi lab reports for both Khelif and Lin say the same thing:
Result Summary: “Abnormal”
Interpretation: “Chromosomal analysis reveals Male karyotype.”

A karyotype means an individual’s complete set of chromosomes. Females have XX chromosomes, males XY.
The lab results for each athlete depict the XY chromosomes photographically.
The IOC asserts both athletes were DQ’d without due process.
The IBA minutes do say, as the IOC has said, that the decision to disqualify was made by the IBA secretary general at the time and that the board was asked to ratify that move.
At the same time, the minutes also make clear that – in the case of Khelif – the acting Algerian ambassador was present at that March 25, 2023, meeting and “invited to present the Algerian position and requested a second opinion on the issue.”
A majority of the board voted to approve the disqualifications, with one abstention and one no, Jose Laureano of Puerto Rico. Laureano then suggested that the IBA establish a “clear procedure on gender testing.” The new rules were in place by May.
The IBA said in a statement that Lin did not appeal the IBA disqualification to the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport, “thus rendering the decision legally binding.”
Khelif, the IBA said, initially lodged an appeal with CAS but dropped the case, “also making the IBA decision legally binding.”"

"The June 2023 IBA letter, meantime, says:
“We are kindly writing to offer our support and cooperation on the matter as it directly impacts the safety of our boxers and the integrity of the [competition] results. In confidence, the IBA can share that Imane Khelif was disqualified from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships 2023 in New Delhi for breaching the IBA Technical and Competition Rules and was not medically eligible to participate in the event as a female boxer.”
To reiterate, the letter refers solely to Khelif. It directs the IOC to the attached lab reports.
It also expressly refers the IOC to that IBA “definition” of “women/female/girl” – defined as someone with XX chromosomes.
In a clear and unambiguous signal to the IOC that the IBA had recognized the loophole after New Delhi and closed it, in language mirroring the new rule, the letter says, “For this purpose, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA competitions.”
The letter also says, “Regarding these essential principles of sport, we must share that the IBA and Prof. Richard McLaren are concerned,” referring to the Canadian legal expert retained by the IBA for governance review but also well-known within the IOC and the broader Olympic movement for his review of his Russian doping, “as some of the invited technical experts have been previously found to be high risk and their participation will subsequently put athletes’ safety in jeopardy.”
Sent a few weeks before the start of the 2023 European Games in Poland, the letter asks for a formal “technical meeting” to “discuss the necessary steps.”
Such a meeting never took place.
The letter concludes: “We trust that you will give this matter the utmost attention it deserves, and you have our absolute support on doing what is necessary to ensure the safety of competing athletes.”"
Original link for the article https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

The text of Abrahamson's tweet yesterday:

At daily @olympics briefing, spokesman Mark Adams confirms my reporting: IOC got @IBA_Boxing letter in June 2023. But Adams says without evidence tests are 'not legitimate.' I've seen Khelife, Lin tests. IOC knows, knew in 2023, New Delhi lab is CAP-accredited and ISO-certified

If the only “women” who enter the Olympic Boxing event are males. I wonder how many would want to get into the ring with other males

From what I saw on Twitter yesterday it took them 7 days in 2023, but I didn't bookmark, sorry. Keep in mind though that only establishes the karyotype and in rhe case of an XY result you'd then need additional tests, esp for testosterone levels, in order to establish male advantage.

Yes at some point it won't be fun and easy pickings for them anymore, so it's in their interest to be coy and not outright discourage women from competing.

Thanks for all the info, everyone.

I wasn't aware that sports could have more than 1 governing body. Boxing has the IBA and World Boxing, it seems. And I assume national level bodies too. So there's not one overarching body, there's 2.

What happens if they disagree with the definitions of male and female, I wonder. The IOC seem to be captured, from what I read. Wonder if World Boxing is, too. That's the end if so. There will never be another Nicola Adams.

The IOC seem to be captured, from what I read

This isn't true, if it was you would see DSD athletes in other disciplines, most notably swimming and cycling where there have been high profile cases at national levels, and track and field where there have been cases before. The IOC is accepting the evidence from those governing bodies and DSD athletes are therefore not competing. It's an issue that is exclusive to boxing for a reason, i.e. the fallout from the governing body. My view is the IOC are weak and don't want to get involved rather than welcoming of DSD athletes.

This is pretty cheeky coming from a man who has accepted "what it says on the passport" as a legitimate way of deciding someone's sex.

The IOC are more cowardly than captured.

The WBO is backing the IBA from the press releases I've seen.

Oh good. There's hope perhaps then. Still crappy for all athletes stuck in the middle of it atm.