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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Megifer · 04/08/2024 11:03

CormorantStrikesBack · 04/08/2024 07:27

Is it fetish gear?

fishnet tights, low-cut black corsets, high heels and a gothic choker

i sometimes wear fishnet (micronet) tights to work. Plenty of employees wear heels. I agree the corset sounds dodgy but unless I saw the specific item it’s hard to say, one persons corset is another persons low cut top and while probably not overly professional may not be bondage wear. In the article there’s a photo of the chocker, it’s black lace……it’s a bit 1990s teen girl fashion wear but i wouldn’t say bondage. 🤷‍♀️

The main issue for me would be that colleagues are feeling like they have to pretend he’s a woman and feel they’re being silenced . I’d be focusing on that. Colleagues quibbling over dress code gives him ammunition for claiming transphobia. So unless something is expressly forbidden in the dress code it’s hard to pull someone up. Wishy washy dress codes of professional attire are hard to enforce.

Caveat, I have no dress code and dress very casually at work. No idea how strict the civil service are. If it’s normally strict he shouldn’t be given special treatment and it should be enforced equally. But focus on it being “non professional” rather than bondage.

You might have wanted to Google image him and seen the sort of shit he wears before coming out with this nonsense post.

LikeAFineMerlot · 04/08/2024 11:05

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 07:11

This is so unhelpful to trans people who just want to go about their lives unnoticed.

What it is highlighting is that for some people, being trans isn't about wanting to be accepted and treated more or less as though they were a member of the opposite sex, but there is a fetish aspect to it. And also that in many workplaces, if you are trans, the rules and standards of behaviour that apply to everyone else don't apply to you.

All that is necessary here is for this person's line manager to take them to one side, and without even mentioning the word "trans", say, "The clothes you are wearing are against the staff dress code. Please wear more appropriate clothes to work from now on."

Exactly right!

changedusernameforthis1 · 04/08/2024 11:05

Just when I think I've heard/seen it all.

You know, I get up on a morning and my day is pretty much the same as most people's, except I take hormone treatment.
Then I come online, see stuff like this and feel like hitting my head against the wall.
No wonder people think we're a joke the majority of the time. I'm so done with having a new GP/nurse/specialist appointment (I have chronic health issues) and them fumbling over pronouns/biological sex/names for body parts because they genuinely don't know how I'll react. They should be able to go to work and not worry about their jobs because they used the correct wording for body parts, just like nobody should have to turn up to work to see someone dressed like that.

kitsuneghost · 04/08/2024 11:11

It's hardly fetishism but not what I would wear to work.
Do they not have a dress code?

kitsuneghost · 04/08/2024 11:12

I think all the women should turn up the same and see what happens.

weeklynonsense · 04/08/2024 11:12

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

TheCadoganArms · 04/08/2024 11:16

I really hope the 'bring your whole self to work' fad days are numbered. Please can you just bring your professional self to work and not be an attention seeking twat. Do that on your own time.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 11:21

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Thanks for the clarification.

If I had had other complaints of the same nature raised in the past, I would be able to evidence that I had addressed it in this way, as this is how I would have address. If I hadn't, there couldn't be a challenge as there is no president. It is nonsensical to say that because no other team members have been 'investigated' this is discrimination.

Iamonsocialmediatoomuch · 04/08/2024 11:23

He seems to have dressed like this for some time, so one wonders if his bahaviour is escalating?
I know someone who works there and generally they are quite left wing ex students and it would take quite a lot to trigger this sort of complaint.
He's obviously peaked quite a lot of people in there - good for him.

MarieDeGournay · 04/08/2024 11:25

Basically a lot of the time we are relying (in society) on people not taking the piss!
There's a whole world of meaning in this sentence, Cangar!

Relying on people to do - let's call it the pro-social thing, rather than the 'right' thing - is central to how society works, because everything can't be, and shouldn't be policed. We rely on self-regulation, which is something that children can usually manage by around age 6, though of course it's something that keeps developing with guidance and social interaction throughout childhood and adolescence.

So we put comfortable soft fabric covering on seats in public transport, relying on people not to put their filthy shoes on them. We have men's toilets and women's toilets for a number of reasons, and we rely on people to respect those reasons. We place lifebelts near to bodies of water, relying on people not to vandalise them or remove them so they'll be there if someone is drowning. We designate parking spaces and toilets as specially for people with disabilities who have difficulty with mobility and with using unadapted toilets and sinks, relying on able-bodied people not to use them.

Relying on people not to take the piss doesn't seem to work very well any more, does it? Are children no longer learning to self-regulate? Is 'But I want to' now the golden rule for adults as well as over-tired 3 year olds?? Is there no agreed set of behaviours that are 'pro-social' any more?

The impossibility of relying on a shared understanding of 'appropriate' outfits at work is a good example, with the added complexity of human rights being interpreted as 'My human rights are whatever I want to do, regardless'.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 11:31

....sent too soon.

I think this person's clothing is very unique so the issue is likely to not have arisen before.

If the conversation about their intention to communicate, through their clothing, that they are unique, quirky and one of a kind, I would point out how these qualities aren't important to the role. I would point out the aspects of dress that were causing upset, and would explore ways of dressing that met his desire to be unique, quirky and one of a kind, without upsetting team mates, and allowing us,as a team, to deliver what is needed.

I fail to see how anyone could reasonably regard this as workplace discrimination. If it were a patient I was talking too, that would be discrimination. There is no way I should be seeking to influence patient's attire, unless there is a medical reason for it.

I do feel for you having such shit leaders!

Getonwitit · 04/08/2024 11:32

It is because he is a weirdo that gets off on shocking people.

Boxina · 04/08/2024 11:39

CormorantStrikesBack · 04/08/2024 07:37

Someone at work frequently wears something like this but she is a goth. I wouldn’t say it’s fetish wear 🤷‍♀️

And I wouldn't say it's office wear.

This is the problem with all this "bring your whole self to work" nonsense. No. Bring your professional self to work. You can be a goth or whatever you want in your own time.

TeaGinandFags · 04/08/2024 11:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 07:11

This is so unhelpful to trans people who just want to go about their lives unnoticed.

What it is highlighting is that for some people, being trans isn't about wanting to be accepted and treated more or less as though they were a member of the opposite sex, but there is a fetish aspect to it. And also that in many workplaces, if you are trans, the rules and standards of behaviour that apply to everyone else don't apply to you.

All that is necessary here is for this person's line manager to take them to one side, and without even mentioning the word "trans", say, "The clothes you are wearing are against the staff dress code. Please wear more appropriate clothes to work from now on."

Not trans.

AGP or autogynaephiliac, a man who is sexually excited by pretending to be female. In common parlance, a pervert. Additionally, an exhibitionist because he can't or won't contain his peccadilloes to his bedroom or club. In more common parlance, an arsehole.

Trans people tend to just want to live their lives quietly. They do not shove their bits in your face like these arseholes. They're desperate to blend in.

As for dressing like that at work, every job I've had has had a dress code. Including the civil service where the older staff lamented these death of the compulsory suit.

I would like to suggest that this is a middle class perversion. How many bus drivers or warehouse workers do you see acting up like this? (Also subject to a dress code.)

Boxina · 04/08/2024 11:42

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

When I was younger, my whole self was all about mini skirts and thigh boots and chain belts and tight low-cut tops. Funnily enough though I didn't wear those to work, I wore blouses and skirts and trousers and looked professional.

Being yourself at work doesn't mean dressing for going out clubbing or for the bedroom.

TeaGinandFags · 04/08/2024 11:43

Boxina · 04/08/2024 11:39

And I wouldn't say it's office wear.

This is the problem with all this "bring your whole self to work" nonsense. No. Bring your professional self to work. You can be a goth or whatever you want in your own time.

This.

When I was in HMRC we had several goths in the office. They had a hint of goth about them, but when you saw them out of hours they really dressed up. Not so in the office.

halava · 04/08/2024 11:47

He needs a permanent WFH contract.

Snowypeaks · 04/08/2024 11:49

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 10:05

Clothes are a form of expression and non verbal communication.

If an employee is wearing several items of clothes that are socially coded as symbolic of 'sexual activity', it should be perfectly acceptable to ask them to dress differently.

Incorporating one of the list (choker, fishnets, corset) into an outfit comprising of more typical clothing could be fine. A friend of mine wears chokers paired with round neck long sleeved t-shirts a jeans. A colleague sometimes wears fishnets with her work suits. The skirts are well fitting and just above the knee and the tights look fine. If the skirts were very short and tight, or if they had slits right up to the groin, the look/expression/communication would be very different.

The 'People Team' (aka HR) in my organisation give awful advice in relation to issues like this due to being ridiculously risk adverse. In this instance they would advise me that I should do nothing incase I upset or offend the person with the protected characteristic. In this instance I, as a hiring manager, wouldn't follow their advice - as is my prerogative.

I would speak to this team member about their work attire. I would check their understanding of clothes being non-verbal communication. If needed (if someone is autistic of has learning disabilities) I would explain this.

I would then ask them what they want to communicate through their clothing. If their answer was appropriate to the role, I would then give them feedback as to the ways in which they are missing the mark, and would advise them on how to achieve their goal.

If their answer was off the mark (if it was based on anything outside of doing the job effectively) U would point out that the work place isn't the place to achieve these ends.

If their answer featured a protective characteristic (religion or gender reassignment), I would return to the question of what they are seeking to communicate through their clothing and whether this is compatible with what is needed from the role.

This isn't rocket science, it isn't even close ti breaching employment law and it doesn't need to be combative or all that difficult.

Just like the whole 'sex is complex and a spectrum' nonsense, this isn't a complex idea once you remove ridiculous 'bring your whole self to work' crap and the idea that giving negative/developmental feedback about performance is abuse/traumatising.

I am a mother, it forms a significant part of my identity, yet I don't seek to parent colleagues and patients. I have also, in the past, done things that, unbeknown to me, weren't the most effective way of working. My managers have fed back and given directives to change, I have then done so.

Very rigid social norms were oppressive and overly restrictive. Most secular people feel that relaxation of norms has been a good thing. Most are easily/lazily accept claims that 'oh, that's just a legacy of Victorian thinking'. However, when engaging their brains, they will quite readily say that the goal should be to broaden norms where there is no good reason not to, not to dismantle them altogether. Many seem to think 'queering' refers to the former, not the latter.

I expect this post is too long to be interesting. Once I started I could't stop!

It's a great post, Brainworm. Full of excellent practical advice, great analysis of the issue.

Snowypeaks · 04/08/2024 11:53

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

But they would be applying it equally - unless you had examples of other people who had flouted the dress code or dressed inappropriately and were not spoken to. This guy is the only one dressing like this, as far as we know.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 11:54

TeaGinandFags · 04/08/2024 11:40

Not trans.

AGP or autogynaephiliac, a man who is sexually excited by pretending to be female. In common parlance, a pervert. Additionally, an exhibitionist because he can't or won't contain his peccadilloes to his bedroom or club. In more common parlance, an arsehole.

Trans people tend to just want to live their lives quietly. They do not shove their bits in your face like these arseholes. They're desperate to blend in.

As for dressing like that at work, every job I've had has had a dress code. Including the civil service where the older staff lamented these death of the compulsory suit.

I would like to suggest that this is a middle class perversion. How many bus drivers or warehouse workers do you see acting up like this? (Also subject to a dress code.)

What is "trans" then? Isn't a trans person just a person who identifies as a member of the opposite sex?

weeklynonsense · 04/08/2024 12:06

Snowypeaks · 04/08/2024 11:53

But they would be applying it equally - unless you had examples of other people who had flouted the dress code or dressed inappropriately and were not spoken to. This guy is the only one dressing like this, as far as we know.

But that’s my point. Im not in the same office as saorsa though I’ve been to hers before and can say it’s very much in line with mine. I actually don’t know what the dress code is because it’s so relaxed it’s not even mentioned in induction but I’m sure it exists and half my office and the one she’s in is probably breaking it. In summer we see shoulders, tank tops, trainers, open toed shoes, short skirts. All year round we see superman T-shirts, ripped jeans, facial piercings, pink hair, etc.

Snowypeaks · 04/08/2024 12:30

@weeklynonsense

"Relaxed" and sexually coded are different. Sexually coded is never acceptable at work. There are nuances about what is sexually coded, of course, but a Superman T-shirt isn't. Ripped jeans might be if the rips are on the bum or crotch area. A short skirt might be if it's really really short.

If others are wearing very inappropriate clothing, they should also be spoken to.

Edited to tag in poster

Justme56 · 04/08/2024 12:54

I agree there has to be limits on what is considered casual and what overreaches boundaries. My DH works in a business where casual is acceptable - even the CEO wears shorts and T shirts. However, they have limits eg no football shirts, short shorts etc. They have limits because as a private business they still need to show a certain level of professionalism without having to resort to suits and ties.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 12:56

I think the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' approach can be applied.

Would the average person read the clothes of this particular employee as significantly different to others? I expect this is a clear yes.

Whilst the term 'appropriate' for the work place is ill defined, it sounds to me as though this guy's attire clearly outside of what it typical. It's safe to assume that the 'typical' sets the benchmark for what is generally accepted.

The organisation can use this incident for introducing a dress code, or revising it. So long as there is a clear rationale for the code, there should not be any employment issues.

MadameMassiveSalad · 04/08/2024 14:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 07:11

This is so unhelpful to trans people who just want to go about their lives unnoticed.

What it is highlighting is that for some people, being trans isn't about wanting to be accepted and treated more or less as though they were a member of the opposite sex, but there is a fetish aspect to it. And also that in many workplaces, if you are trans, the rules and standards of behaviour that apply to everyone else don't apply to you.

All that is necessary here is for this person's line manager to take them to one side, and without even mentioning the word "trans", say, "The clothes you are wearing are against the staff dress code. Please wear more appropriate clothes to work from now on."

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