Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
5
Omlettes · 04/08/2024 08:25

CormorantStrikesBack · 04/08/2024 07:50

I did say it sounds dodgy but without seeing it hard to know. If they’re exaggerating a lace choker into fetish wear are they exaggerating a top into a corset? They might not be but when you start complaining about someone at work wearing high heels it makes it hard to believe everything else.

the two tops below, I’d happily wear one to work. The other would be inappropriate. Is he wearing something like the one with straps?

Fgs stop splitting hairs, you know perfectly well from experience he is not presentling like that, if you dont you should by now.

OP posts:
llamajohn · 04/08/2024 08:27

The way to stop it, is all the women need to come in the same attire.

All of a sudden it will be an issue that will be dealt with.

DeanElderberry · 04/08/2024 08:58

Why would grown adult women want to be dragged down to his level? (while acknowledging @cangar's post about a woman who dressed like that - and was seen as a problem)

SwordToFlamethrower · 04/08/2024 09:06

The women should. See how quickly it comes to an end then.

In tesco, I was served by a lad with green hair and a pet collar with a huge bell on it. I'm sick of it all

Zusammen · 04/08/2024 09:16

The sex and gender of the person are irrelevant and a red herring. The clothing the person is wearing is inappropriate for the workplace, end of discussion.

Myalternate · 04/08/2024 09:25

https://archive.ph/PSdRV

Is this appropriate office attire?

Funnywonder · 04/08/2024 09:33

He clearly enjoys the attention. Perhaps everyone should ignore what he's wearing and, like a small child, he will tire of his silly little game.

weeklynonsense · 04/08/2024 09:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

StoatofDisarray · 04/08/2024 09:35

InvisibleBuffy · 04/08/2024 06:49

It's always about pushing boundaries, isn't it? No one in their right mind thinks fetish gear is appropriate at work, especially in the civil service service. It's not about expressing true self or whatever gumpf is being used as an excuse. It's about making women uncomfortable and knowing they don't have the power to object. Fed up with this stuff.

If his true self is a porn-addled narcissist he's doing a good job of expressing it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/08/2024 09:38

Honestly this just looks like bog standard goth girl attire to me. To be fair goth fasion is itself influenced by fetishwear, but this seems more like the "lacy victorian" type than the "dog collar cyber goth" type that is more heavily fetish inspired. And just to add more layers, the aesthetic could well be coming via manga and anime.

Sure the driver might still be a fetish for this person, but I think it's more "my fetish is to be a goth girl" than "my fetish is to wear women's fetishwear"

I reject the idea that something in man's head makes him a woman. I don't need to sensationalise every trans woman's choice of clothes to justify saying trans woman are not women.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 10:05

Clothes are a form of expression and non verbal communication.

If an employee is wearing several items of clothes that are socially coded as symbolic of 'sexual activity', it should be perfectly acceptable to ask them to dress differently.

Incorporating one of the list (choker, fishnets, corset) into an outfit comprising of more typical clothing could be fine. A friend of mine wears chokers paired with round neck long sleeved t-shirts a jeans. A colleague sometimes wears fishnets with her work suits. The skirts are well fitting and just above the knee and the tights look fine. If the skirts were very short and tight, or if they had slits right up to the groin, the look/expression/communication would be very different.

The 'People Team' (aka HR) in my organisation give awful advice in relation to issues like this due to being ridiculously risk adverse. In this instance they would advise me that I should do nothing incase I upset or offend the person with the protected characteristic. In this instance I, as a hiring manager, wouldn't follow their advice - as is my prerogative.

I would speak to this team member about their work attire. I would check their understanding of clothes being non-verbal communication. If needed (if someone is autistic of has learning disabilities) I would explain this.

I would then ask them what they want to communicate through their clothing. If their answer was appropriate to the role, I would then give them feedback as to the ways in which they are missing the mark, and would advise them on how to achieve their goal.

If their answer was off the mark (if it was based on anything outside of doing the job effectively) U would point out that the work place isn't the place to achieve these ends.

If their answer featured a protective characteristic (religion or gender reassignment), I would return to the question of what they are seeking to communicate through their clothing and whether this is compatible with what is needed from the role.

This isn't rocket science, it isn't even close ti breaching employment law and it doesn't need to be combative or all that difficult.

Just like the whole 'sex is complex and a spectrum' nonsense, this isn't a complex idea once you remove ridiculous 'bring your whole self to work' crap and the idea that giving negative/developmental feedback about performance is abuse/traumatising.

I am a mother, it forms a significant part of my identity, yet I don't seek to parent colleagues and patients. I have also, in the past, done things that, unbeknown to me, weren't the most effective way of working. My managers have fed back and given directives to change, I have then done so.

Very rigid social norms were oppressive and overly restrictive. Most secular people feel that relaxation of norms has been a good thing. Most are easily/lazily accept claims that 'oh, that's just a legacy of Victorian thinking'. However, when engaging their brains, they will quite readily say that the goal should be to broaden norms where there is no good reason not to, not to dismantle them altogether. Many seem to think 'queering' refers to the former, not the latter.

I expect this post is too long to be interesting. Once I started I could't stop!

Datun · 04/08/2024 10:08

If he's AGP (and I'm not saying he is, HQ), then any clothes coded for women are 'fetish gear'. It's the outward manifestation.

Transactivism actively erodes boundaries.

I didn't think the comedy breast man in the Canadian school could happen here. But if people are pretending fetishes are equally common between men and women or a woman's strappy top is equivalent, or dress codes can't be enforced, then I'm not so sure.

If the civil service won't stop a man showing up to work like that, making his colleagues concerned and uncomfortable, then they only have themselves to blame if it escalates.

PeppercornMill · 04/08/2024 10:09

Looks like Noddy Holder.

Datun · 04/08/2024 10:13

I would speak to this team member about their work attire. I would check their understanding of clothes being non-verbal communication. If needed (if someone is autistic of has learning disabilities) I would explain this.

I would then ask them what they want to communicate through their clothing. If their answer was appropriate to the role, I would then give them feedback as to the ways in which they are missing the mark, and would advise them on how to achieve their goal.

interesting. I'd like to be a fly on the wall if that conversation was had with this individual.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/08/2024 10:17

Name changed for this and even so am nervous to say anything which if traced back to me could land me in hot water so forgive me on being light on details.

It's understandable, thank you for this post.

I imagine that the majority of colleagues know what this person's about, however much they feel the need to play along.

openforall · 04/08/2024 10:18

Regardless of the dresscode, nobody wants to see all that flesh on show at work

Corset over a t shirt may be ok but bear shoulders no

weeklynonsense · 04/08/2024 10:18

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

XChrome · 04/08/2024 10:20

"Trans genocide."
What a nutcase. Wearing fetish gear to work is passive aggression, and I'm not even sure about the passive part.

Ramblingnamechanger · 04/08/2024 10:20

How dare he wear the lesbian symbol. Bloody hell when I started work l was not even allowed to wear trousers!

Shortshriftandlethal · 04/08/2024 10:20

CormorantStrikesBack · 04/08/2024 07:37

Someone at work frequently wears something like this but she is a goth. I wouldn’t say it’s fetish wear 🤷‍♀️

I think you would if a man was wearing it to the office.

If a woman wore the same she'd be considered highly unprofessional at least.

XChrome · 04/08/2024 10:25

CormorantStrikesBack · 04/08/2024 07:37

Someone at work frequently wears something like this but she is a goth. I wouldn’t say it’s fetish wear 🤷‍♀️

It is if you wear a corset and fishnets with it.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 10:30

I would love to have this conversation with this individual.

In relation to 'what are you hoping to communicate through your dress' most people will say things aligned with qualities that are important to their role (e.g primary school teacher - friendly, approachable, whilst a security guard - serious, strong).

Whilst these qualities are about themselves, they are about themselves in their work role. I expect this individual would list a whole load of non work related 'qualities'.

When asked about whether others are likely to receive the communication as intended, most people will suggest they do (as this is why they dress like this at work). I expect this individual would not answer in this way. I expect he would provide an explanation as to why this wasn't important.

plhkldsytrd · 04/08/2024 10:34

Ah I wondered why there has been some ministerial questions about this, Reddit loved mocking the questions and its "transgender hate agenda" because this is perfectly reasonable and acceptable of course.

DeanElderberry · 04/08/2024 10:43

It is interesting that this shows that old fashioned dress codes can be useful.

I think I'd start with - Shoulders covered, no political slogans visible, in some settings legs covered and closed shoes (for safety reasons), skirts or shorts no shorter than knee length. Facial hair clean and managed, head hair tied back, or covered if working at close quarters with food or other people. Jewellery not of a sort that could snag or tear. Good personal hygiene (I had a 'real men don't wear deodorant' colleague once, he was a trial), no scented products to be sprayed in shared spaces.

What else? Once people have been given a defined code they can work with it. We used to be told 'office wear' and knew what was meant by that, but I suspect the words would mean nothing to many younger workers.

Brainworm · 04/08/2024 10:52

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I am lucky in that our HR function have a role in advising senior leaders but not dictating to. They too would give these warnings but I would still take the action I took.

The reason why I think it wouldn't count as bullying is that it is a measured response to complaints being made and the starting point is exploring the perspective of the team member in relation to the complaints.

There is nothing at all bullying about following up a complaint with a conversation with the subject of the complaint to explore the issues arising. He may not want to talk about his choice of clothes, he may feel offended at being required to, he may feel it's rude, but it is entirely reasonable (I would say needed) to have this conversation in order to be a high performing team (or even a functional one).

If he felt he was unfairly being singled out, this would indicate he has a blind spot regarding how different his appearance is to the rest of the team, or he felt entitled to be very different and not be questioned. Again, this indicates the discussion is important.

Swipe left for the next trending thread