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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should there be a DSD category at the Paralympics?

168 replies

GerbilsAllTheWayDown · 31/07/2024 14:26

I think it would be a great idea to have a DSD category, but I lack the knowledge to really assess whether it would be a good idea and what the merits and pitfalls might be. What do the wise women of FWR think?

OP posts:
UtopiaPlanitia · 01/08/2024 19:40

I can’t get the graphs mentioned in the post above to post here, sorry. So here’s a link to the relevant tweet contained the graphs Hooven is referring to:

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819046454922518835

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 20:06

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/08/2024 19:31

Twitter post from Carole Hooven today:

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

Seems like a good time to re-post my older (now edited) post about athletes with XY DSDs (Disorder, or Difference of Sex Development). Lots of graphs and detail about the relevant biology at the end.

* * *

First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits.

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone.

DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.

The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed. I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence.

Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.)

For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes.

For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2).

The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups.

The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)." "Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)."

Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.

We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

Really useful - I wish we could pin that somewhere.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 01:11

whinginglittlefucker · 31/07/2024 21:09

@DSDaisy I agree with you. The attitude here to women with DSD is horrible, punitive, hateful; there is no other medical condition where people are so excoriated and blamed and accused of being bad faith actors (other threads) No wonder people with DSDs find acceptance in the alphabet soup community. I would make an exception for contact sports where XY women could hurt other competitors in women's category, but in other categories people with DSDs born and raised as girls are welcome in my view.

Where do you think anyone has a problem with people with DSDs, any more than any other group of people?

People have a problem with certain individuals who use their medical condition to cheat. As well as the sporting bodies that enable it, and the coaches and teams that allow it or even start it.

No one has any issue with a male with a DSD who isn't cheating or putting people in danger by doing so.

GnomeDePlume · 02/08/2024 08:08

I am not keen to label someone with an XY DSD as a cheat.

They come up through sporting systems which will have labelled them as 'special'. They may not have understood what that meant. For many, early sporting success will have seen them separated from their peers. They will have spent much of their time in training camps.

The cheats are the coaches, the national sporting organisations. They have a vested interest in producing 'champions'. The success brings money through fees, advertising, sponsorship.

Targeting young people with XY DSDs is an easy way of getting that money. Women's sport is growing in wealth.

As the viewing public we are cheated when we see XY DSD people winning women's events. We aren't seeing women athletes at their absolute best. Instead we are seeing people who don't need to train as hard or prepare as well to win. Like watching a 12 year old win a race for under 10s.

willowtolive · 02/08/2024 10:22

I've been reading that certain countries actively search out males with DSD to compete in women's sports, due to the obvious advantage they have over women. How is this being allowed ? Also that DSD males won Olympic gold silver and bronze at I think the 800m. I mean really? Women's sport is seriously at risk here and something needs to be done .

RedToothBrush · 02/08/2024 10:25

willowtolive · 02/08/2024 10:22

I've been reading that certain countries actively search out males with DSD to compete in women's sports, due to the obvious advantage they have over women. How is this being allowed ? Also that DSD males won Olympic gold silver and bronze at I think the 800m. I mean really? Women's sport is seriously at risk here and something needs to be done .

Its allowed because the IOC allow it and haven't cracked down on it.

willowtolive · 02/08/2024 10:30

This needs to change then. Makes a complete mockery of the whole thing. I'm so angry about this. Anyone accusing of hate or bigotry are wrong as well. I have sympathy for anyone born with a DSD but that does not give them the right to compete unfairly in women's sports . Any more than I have the right to compete unfairly in disabled sports. Most of us aren't able to compete in the Olympics that's the whole point of it.

CocoapuffPuff · 02/08/2024 10:52

The issue is that it is being allowed by the relevant authorities.

We're opportunists as a species. There's a loophole, it's a guarantee that someone will spot it and exploit it.

This is way bigger than the individuals participating where they don't belong. It's way bigger than the coaching teams and national selectors exploiting the loophole. This is 100% the responsibility of the top level organisations who have refused, in this case, to close the loopholes.

No loophole = nothing to exploit.

Now, the question is WHY those top level bureaucrats and organisations have refused to close the loophole.

Cowardice? Financial gain? Personal agenda? Or just simple, basic, everyday sexism?

It doesn't matter. Till that loophole is sewn shut, this will happen over and over and over.

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 11:36

Quite right. This can be laid at the door of the IOC.

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/08/2024 12:40

Science of Sport podcast, featuring Professor Ross Tucker and sports journalist Mike Finch, discussing the situation in boxing:

https://overcast.fm/+AAyCZoLWCQo

Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women’s Boxing. How Did We Get Here? — The Real Science of Sport Podcast — Overcast

https://overcast.fm/+AAyCZoLWCQo

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 13:13

We're opportunists as a species. There's a loophole, it's a guarantee that someone will spot it and exploit it.

In the run up to 2012 and the Paralympics, C4 followed a number of athletes training for this or the Olympics, iirc it was the Superhumans series. One of the Paralympic athletes explained the classification system that governs the scoring of events. He was very funny when he said something like, "So, of course we all try and game the system so that we can get into the category that will give us more points".

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/c4-announces-paralympic-games-documentary-series-best-british

All this time later, the comment about wheelchair rugby and male identity are interesting.

As well as following the fortunes of the squad the film also looks at the idea of male identity. Many of the team were once able bodied and found themselves in wheelchairs later in life.
The film is interested in how they have adapted to that and how the physical aspect of the game has helped them keep their sense of masculinity and male identity.

C4 announces Paralympic Games documentary series Best of British | Channel 4

Series follows athletes from a range of sports as they journey towards selection for the London 2012 Paralympic Games

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/c4-announces-paralympic-games-documentary-series-best-british

CocoapuffPuff · 02/08/2024 13:37

I think being an opportunist is totally natural. It's how humans came to dominate planet earth after all. We have rules and laws to regulate our natural opportunism within boundaries that are meant to benefit most, if not all.

The IOC have failed miserably on this. They have fucked up on an epic scale. The problem the DEI types have is that the population as a whole are getting increasingly unwilling to play the game that has been imposed on us for the last few years. This situation may just be the breaking point. When that dam bursts, I would not like to be in front of it.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:38

GnomeDePlume · 02/08/2024 08:08

I am not keen to label someone with an XY DSD as a cheat.

They come up through sporting systems which will have labelled them as 'special'. They may not have understood what that meant. For many, early sporting success will have seen them separated from their peers. They will have spent much of their time in training camps.

The cheats are the coaches, the national sporting organisations. They have a vested interest in producing 'champions'. The success brings money through fees, advertising, sponsorship.

Targeting young people with XY DSDs is an easy way of getting that money. Women's sport is growing in wealth.

As the viewing public we are cheated when we see XY DSD people winning women's events. We aren't seeing women athletes at their absolute best. Instead we are seeing people who don't need to train as hard or prepare as well to win. Like watching a 12 year old win a race for under 10s.

Yes, I think that's fair - what I would say is sometimes it should be laid more at the door of the sporting authorities and coaches, and other times the individuals themselves are very much complicit.

In general, I think an athlete who realizes the situation should withdraw, and I think most by their 20s are in a position to understand what's going on.

However, we don't always know how protected they have been, or what pressures are on them. Those from certain countries may not have a real choice because they are not free to refuse what the state tells them to do, much like the East German women.

To me this is all the more reason to make the rules very clear and strict, so individuals are not exploited like this.

Tbh, I have come to think, not just because of this, that the Olympics are so corrupt that they bring more disrepute to sports than anything else, and we would be better off without them. The money could be redirected into actual sports which these days have world events regularly anyway.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 13:44

I think an athlete who realizes the situation should withdraw, and I think most by their 20s are in a position to understand what's going on.

Zdeněk Koubek won several medals as a woman at the Games (1934) that were the precursor to women being able to compete in the Olympics. For various reasons (including a VSD diagnosis), Koubek announced an intention to live as a man and did (press coverage seems to have been very positive). iirc, Koubek voluntarily handed back the medals and the records were cancelled.

ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zden%C4%9Bk_Koubek

Zdeněk Koubek - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zden%C4%9Bk_Koubek

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:56

CocoapuffPuff · 02/08/2024 13:37

I think being an opportunist is totally natural. It's how humans came to dominate planet earth after all. We have rules and laws to regulate our natural opportunism within boundaries that are meant to benefit most, if not all.

The IOC have failed miserably on this. They have fucked up on an epic scale. The problem the DEI types have is that the population as a whole are getting increasingly unwilling to play the game that has been imposed on us for the last few years. This situation may just be the breaking point. When that dam bursts, I would not like to be in front of it.

Edited

And more and more, in many sectors, we see people using EDI schemes to create advantage. This is inevitably dismissed as "a level playing field seems like a disadvantage to those who have enjoyed privilege" but that's not what is going on at all.

Turophilic · 02/08/2024 14:02

much like the East German women.

It’s worth pointing out the East German athletes were told they were in a vitamin regime and their long term health was destroyed by the doping they underwent

I’m not saying @TempestTost isn’t aware of this, I just wanted to clarify that those female athletes were victims of a regime that put glory ahead of not just fairness but the lives of its athletes.

In the case of the two boxers, where is the glory, the sense of achievement in beating people who never stood a chance because you were deliberately competing in the wrong category? I don’t feel victorious when I beat a 6 year old at cards, for God’s sake.

RethinkingLife · 02/08/2024 14:41

A senior family member was reminiscing about 'sports science' during the 70s and 80s, when there seemed to be a common belief that only puberty suppressed girls had a chance of winning gymnastic medals. iirc, (male) sports writers wrote screeds about the O'Carroll formula and muscle to mass ratio although that was only ever intended for use in weightlifting (and boys | men).

It was generally accepted that puberty wrecked a woman's muscle to mass composition and the development of secondary sexual characteristics was catastrophic. I'd like to think that recent games have put the lie to that (e.g., Simone Biles) but it seems it may be time for a reconsideration of the human cost of some sports and what they facilitate.

It seems that for more than 30 years, women's gymnastics has been legal child abuse sanctioned in well-regarded competitions. Biles has spoken up about this but, as we know from so many scandals, it continues.

why would the International Olympic Committee, which issued guidelines on the rights of elite child athletes in 2008, allow a sport that is so central during the Olympics to systematically and flagrantly violate those frameworks?
If this doesn’t cross the line in the sand, then why have one at all? If a sport can emerge, can it also fade away – or fade out – before it reappears again?

https://thecorrespondent.com/739/why-womens-gymnastics-is-legal-child-abuse

International bodies, national sporting organisations, coaches and parents all collude in the abuse of of some especially vulnerable groups of athletes. I don't know what is acceptable and what isn't but it feels like we're long overdue some very necessary conversations.

Why women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

Women’s gymnastics has a decades-old, reform-resistant culture of abuse. It’s hard to see a solution when child abuse isn’t an exception in women’s gymnastics – it’s the logical consequence.

https://thecorrespondent.com/739/why-womens-gymnastics-is-legal-child-abuse

GnomeDePlume · 02/08/2024 14:47

@Turophilic I think you can ask that question of anyone who knowingly cheats.

In my view there can be something psychopathic in a person's makeup. If you look at someone like Lance Armstrong, winning was everything. He knew he was cheating. He justified it to himself by saying everyone was doing it just he was better at cheating.

A thief is no different. They take something which isn't rightfully theirs and only have contempt for their victims.

I don't want to watch sport to see who is the best cheat.

I can still remember the sheer joy of seeing Kelly Holmes come home with 2 gold medals. After years of being dogged by injury, she had an injury free season. It was a wonderful thing.

That's the magic I want to see.

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