Should there be a DSD category at the Paralympics?

[GerbilsAllTheWayDown]

I think it would be a great idea to have a DSD category, but I lack the knowledge to really assess whether it would be a good idea and what the merits and pitfalls might be. What do the wise women of FWR think?

A dear step daughter category??

Oh

No I don't think it's a good idea to have people forced to declare what's between their legs.

There would be a lot less trauma if genetic testing was always required to compete in professional women's sport and other women's elite sport, and if any genetic males with a DSD that gives an advantage over women were automatically ruled out of the women's category. The initial genetic test is a simple cheek swab.

Knowing that there is no possibility of e.g. an elite women's win for a man would mean that males would be tested and detected much younger, and before they had built up a career in women's sport or got any publicity as "women". It's always going to be traumatic to learn you're not the sex you believed you were but better early than late and better to find out before you've started a sporting career or any publicity as the other sex.

And it would mean that men with DSDs would not be sought out by unscrupulous coaches to train as women and enter into women's events.

Sounds tough so tough.

I'm usual circumstances no, and it's not what's between their legs that matters when it comes to the Olympics. As difficult as it is for all concerned, an XY person with DSD, so possibly presenting as female but with internal testes and all of the advantages of growing up male, matters in high level sport when you have categories defined by sex to ensure fair competition. Should women really be playing rugby or boxing against someone with male strength..? It's hard, but safety and fairness must prevail.

True as all that may be, what relevance does it have to them competing in women's sports?

So it's women's resources, yet again, being offered as a refuge to males who just can't make it in the male category?

It sounds brutal, I realise that, but how much more brutal is it for a female boxer to realise that tomorrow, she's facing a genetic male in an Olympic bout?

Boohoo im saaaaad, versus A&E.

No competition there, not for me.

Elite sport is not about being nice or kind.

Any loophole will be taken advantage of whether by athletes themselves, coaches or sporting bodies. Having a champion in your 'stable' brings kudos but also money through sponsorship, advertising etc.

They wouldn't need to be outed to the world if they accepted the results of the testing. They could simply retire or give a myriad of other reasons without giving personal information.

Only those that have failed testing and yet still compete are discussed, as they should be, as fairness is what is of importance when it comes to elite sport.

I hope you enjoy watching the funeral of a woman killed by an XY boxer in the ring, knowing that at least the XY's little girl dreams of Olympic Gold weren't crushed.

Your emotional blackmail is nauseating.

What does this even mean?

Op the paralympics are categorised within the different sports how would you categories this sex difference you are talking about.

So, youre happy to have a XX female facing an XY male in the boxing ring then. Gotcha. Your concept of fairness is miles away from mine.

Is the increasing stigma partly to do with the forced trans agenda, where genetically normal men are claiming now both to be women and also intersex (that is the term most if these lying men use)?

There should be no stigma around DSDs, but if those with them have home through male puberty, they should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports. That shouldn’t carry stigma. Insisting you must be allowed in women’s sports when you have been proven to be genetically male is a sure way to increase stigma though.

I think those with DSDs should be allowed to retain the sex that was assigned at birth, if that is more comfortable for them. Alternatively, they should be allowed to change it, if that is their preference. I think that is the only time any person should be allowed to choose their legal sex.

That still shouldn’t allow them to compete as women though, if they are biologically male.

I don’t see how this could be at all effective. There are many different DSDs, with different causes and impacts, and most importantly: some will affect males and others will affect females. Even with the same conditions, not all will be affected in the same ways to the same extent. Some males don’t respond to androgens at all and will have externally female genitals – others will have ambiguous, or male-but-undervirilized genitals. You can’t possibly just chuck every athelete with a DSD into the same category, as if they’re all the same. It’s not some sort of third sex, it’s males or females with medical conditions.

Even ignoring that, or if it was split into different categories of disorder, would there be enough athletes to compete? People with DSDs who not only want to compete but are good enough?

What people in this thread seem to be mostly talking about is 5ARD, what Caster Semenya has. My feelings on that are that that disorder does not cause insensitivity to all androgens at all, males with it respond to testosterone at puberty and have those benefits in sports. Semenya has testosterone in the normal male range - which their body responds to to afford them the benefits in sporting seen in healthy males – because they are a bonafide XY chromosomed male. Their high testosterone isn’t a variation of female, it’s because they are male. Semenya should not be allowed to compete with women. Neither should anyone else with the same disorder.

That disorder I think is somewhat of an outlier - most DSDs in males cause them to be a lot weaker due to not responding to androgens as a normal male. Still, that doesn’t mean they should compete with females because they are not females – just that it’s less likely to be an issue.

I can imagine how hard it must be grow up as female and then experience masculinisation at puberty, as with 5ARD. I’m sure its difficult to have any sort of DSD. I hope people struggling with it can get help and come to terms with it, and I completely see why they’d have a complex relationship to their sexual and gender identities. But they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in a sex category that they aren’t.

Sometimes we can’t do things we might like to do because of physical limiations outside or our control. Like being too short/tall, or having asthma, or poor eyesight. Just because that limitation is to do with your sex and gender identity doesn’t mean it should be waved away.

This. Absolutely this.

Funny how an incredibly rare condition is over represented in elite womens sport, isn't it?.

I believe scouts are actively looking for youngsters with these conditions, specifically to exploit the loopholes that still exist. The only solution is to close the loopholes. They're overrepresented because they're "hot stuff" in the coaching world. Each kid they find is a potential goldmine to be exploited.

Exactly this. Even if the advantage is slight, those margins can be enough to move someone from 'also ran' to winner.

Unscrupulous scouts and coaches have no interest in the long-term health of an athlete. They will have no qualms about exploiting any advantage even if that is detrimental to the long-term health of an athlete.