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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones blog on Tommy Robinson

1000 replies

CassieMaddox · 28/07/2024 22:31

Just a really great read
https://janeclarejones.com/2024/07/28/tommy-robinson-far-right-populism-and-gender-criticism/

These are my favourite bits:

The greatest danger to women and girls has always been, and remains, the men inside their own houses. This is the nature, and the devastation, of endemic male sexual violence. It usually happens in the place, and with the people, who are supposed to be most safe. It would perhaps be comforting to imagine that we could easily identify the men who are dangerous – the Muslims, the brown ones, the ones in dresses – and then we could keep ourselves safe by keeping them out. But the argument materialist feminists made throughout the early years of the gender wars applies equally here: men are a statistical danger to women as a class and there is prima facie no way of working out which ones are dangerous and which ones are not.

The argument is no longer ‘guilt by association’ or ‘purity politics,’ it is now a) What even is the far right anyway?, b) The far right doesn’t mean anything because I was called far right for knowing men aren’t women, c) You people think anyone who disagrees with you is far right, and d) He is not far right anyway. That is, it has moved from claiming that association with the far right is either not happening or if it is happening has no impact on the substance of GC discourse, to people openly associating with the far right and recycling far right talking points while denying that the far right is the far right.

But what feminist women have tried, largely unsuccessfully, to get across, is that these kinds of men are not on ‘your side,’ if ‘your side’ is genuinely defending women’s rights. These men are on their side, and their side wants a largely white patriarchal nation, in which ‘their’ women know their place and are ‘protected’ only insofar as ‘protection’ means keeping them guarded from ‘other’ men.

The pictures at the end of the article are very illuminating too.

Brava JCJ 👏

Tommy Robinson, Far Right Populism, and ‘Gender Criticism’

Just under two years ago, in September 2022, the online British ‘gender critical’[1] community descended into a many-week conflagration following the presence of two people from a far-right organis…

https://janeclarejones.com/2024/07/28/tommy-robinson-far-right-populism-and-gender-criticism

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
KielderWater · 30/07/2024 20:52

CassieMaddox · 30/07/2024 20:43

Hmm.
That's an extreme misrepresentation of what I said.
Like "multiculturalism", you would need to define "womens spaces" to be accurate.

But I really can't be bothered rehashing this. I'll take it as a compliment you are keeping notes 😂

Like with multiculturalism, you are very transparent and I am not going to get draw into the argument you want on that.

EdithStourton · 30/07/2024 21:58

CassieMaddox · 30/07/2024 18:45

OK I'm really not sure why you are getting so weird about this.

We are having a conversation about "ideological capture" and "the left". Both terms I personally find hyperbolic, unspecific and slightly offensive. As I've said and I've explained why.

So far I'm none the wiser as to specifically why posters feel it's OK to stereotype and scapegoat "the left" in the way they do..and the Dentons report doesn't help.

I think you agree with me, which is why you are getting annoyed. But what you don't seem to be able to do is read the other posts that I'm replying to and follow the thread of the conversation. I'm not just pulling it out of my backside that posters repeatedly go on about "the left" and "ideological capture".

It makes it almost impossible to have a discussion.

No, Cassie, I don't agree with you.

And I'm not 'getting weird'. I was just trying to be specific about what people on the thread were saying, in the face of some wild over-generalisations from you. I'm one hell of a pedant, as you may have noticed. This I because I believe that facts matter. And I am perfectly capable of reading the whole discussion, thanks, and understanding what is going on.

As for 'the left', I think there is general agreement amongst posters on FWR that 'the left' has lost its collective mind over the past few years, with a handful of notable and noble exceptions like Rosie Duffield. When you see how she has been treated, it's not unreasonable to 'stereotype' 'the left' as batshit and captured by an insane ideology. I'm monumentally pissed off with the left for being so fucking stupid.

Of course, you may disagree. In fact, I'm 99% certain that you do. That's fine.

And it is almost impossible to have a discussion with someone who isn't clear in what she says and uses words whose meaning she doesn't understand.

Bosky · 30/07/2024 22:13

CassieMaddox · 30/07/2024 19:48

Here you go bosky. It was only the last page but appears you didn't read it, saves me typing it all again

Your quoted reply that you copied and pasted was not a reply to me but to a post by Ereshkigalangcleg at 16:42, so it is a bit of a non sequitur but I will respond anyway.

If there was a problem with systematic "capture" of the public sector the only conceivable, realistic place that could be coming from was the Government of the day, as that is the only body that has consistent influence over the whole public sector. The government for the past 14 years was the Conservatives. So again, the idea "the left" are responsible for "capture" doesn't bear scrutiny.

As other PP have already pointed out to you, the "capture" started well before May 2010 when the Tories came into power. The example you were given was that the GRA was passed in 2004 under a Labour Government.

Here is evidence of even earlier influence - under another Tory Government that predated the Labour Landslide in 1997. However, this does not prove that this is all down to the Tories.

It amplifies the point made by other PPs that it is not the Government in power that is the significant factor but influence on, and then by, left-wing institutions, in this case the Civil Service Trade Union.

Note the reference to the potential incidental influence of Press For Change attendance at the PTC Union Seminar on policy in at least one prison.

The PTC Union Seminar
By Andrea Bloomfield and Christine Biggs

On Saturday 14th September 1996, four members of Press For Change were invited to speak to lesbian, gay, and bisexual members of the Public Service, Taxation and Commerce Union at their seminar at Aston Business School in Birmingham.

From the start it was clear that they had a great deal of interest in transgendered rights - we were given the main lecture theatre for our workshop, and every union representative who was there attended our sessions, several of them returning for a repeat performance!

They asked many intelligent questions, they all gave us their undivided attention and took away leaflets and specially prepared information packages, as well as signing our petition.

In between the lectures there was plenty of opportunity to talk to individual LGB members of the union at length, and they were without exception warm and friendly and expressed genuine interest and concern for how they could help prevent discrimination against transgendered people in the workplace, and how they could help Press For Change. They were mystified by the Government's refusal to legitimise the status of transsexual people, when the natural justice of our cause seemed so obvious to them, and such a small number of individuals is involved.

They had been unsure, before we spoke, if LGB groups were the most appropriate bodies to include and represent transgendered union members, since many transsexuals are heterosexual and might feel they belonged elsewhere ... in women's groups for example. However, following our discussions, both the LGB members and ourselves, felt that we had such a lot in common, due to our mutual experiences of discrimination, and that transgendered people could benefit from the greater numbers, the knowledge, and the caring motivated approach of the LGB group. They have developed considerable skills in campaigning for social justice.

It did seem that our involvement in Pride 96, and the bridge building that has already occurred, has broken down many of the barriers and misconceptions on both sides. It seems that as the gay and lesbian community gains self confidence and maturity it is becoming increasingly tolerant and socially aware, concerned to include rather than exclude other minority groups. Hands are being outstretched on both sides.

It was agreed that the union will donate £100 to Press For Change, as well as paying our expenses which we obviously kept to a minimum. They will also refer cases of discrimination to Press for Change so that transgendered union members can have access to our support and to lawyers skilled in dealing with these cases. They will recommend affiliation to PFC at the union's next conference, and will maintain links to mutually assist each other's campaigns.
Incidentally, one of the union members who works in a department responsible for planning the health care needs of transsexual prisoners was made aware of the G&SA <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20060710222919/www.pfc.org.uk/legal/tsprison.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Submission to HM Prison Service, and he will bring the matter to the attention of his manager.

We were most impressed by a speech given by Peter Tatchell, the infamous gay activist. In spite of the media image which portrays him as excessively radical, dangerous or even mad!, he is an articulate, engaging and charismatic speaker, who also seems to be decent, level-headed and humane. He made an impassioned plea for the right to be different, not just for the same rights as everyone else, but for tolerance of what makes gay or transgendered people unique, and an acknowledgement that they have a great deal to contribute to society.

Many thanks to Michelle Wilson, who gave an excellent presentation about how best to approach management when changing over, and to Frank Hannah who made a big impression with his very personal description of the way in which discrimination limits the lives of transsexuals.

If anyone would like to involve their union in our campaign, the Press For Change Information Pack contains sample letters and suggestions. Please ask your union what their policy is concerning transgendered rights and suggest that they affiliate to PFC.

ARCHIVED:
Copy and paste this: http://www.pfc.org.uk/campaign/ptcrpt.htm

Into the Search Box here:
https://web.archive.org/

It can be argued that gender identity ideology is not an inherently "left-wing" ideology. One of the Founders and leading lights of Press For Change was a Conservative Party activist.

It is nevertheless true that left-wing institutions are, literally, the flag bearers of transgenderism. They are not alone but I would suggest that they have got to that place for ideological and political reasons, rather than, for example, commercial and business interests.

Institutions such as the Church of England, for a long time stereotyped as "The Tory Party at Prayer", now typify socially liberal "progressive politics": the politics of the Left.

It is perhaps more accurate to say that The Left has, for the most part, been "captured" by identity politics to a larger extent than the Right?

As far as "sex vs gender" issues are concerned, the closer to the extremes of the Right and parts of the Left you go the more you will find that they remain solidly based in reality. Similarly with "socially conservative" parties. This is where there is "common cause" not just between Tommy Robinson and GC Feminists but also between (in alphabetical order): The Communist Party, The Party of Women, Reform UK, the Social Democratic Party and the Workers Party of Britain.

Maybe it would be better to talk about "socially liberal" vs "socially conservative" rather than Left vs Right? However, it seems a bit pedantic because, on whole, the Left tends to be socially liberal and the Right socially conservative.

But even assuming it (systematic "capture" of the public sector) were true, what's your solution? Get rid of all public institutions? More centralised government control? Direct voting on every aspect of public life? Quickly one starts to run out of road with a democracy. Which is why I find the whole thing dangerous.

I would suggest that the existence of "Dissident Organisations" such as the SEEN groups I posted about here indicate that there is a culture from which some wish to dissent:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129991-jane-clare-jones-blog-on-tommy-robinson?page=6&reply=137173017

I take your point that you were objecting to a more general claim, ie. of institutional capture by "the Left". However, I think I have dealt with that above?

I find the suggested remedies that you jump to somewhat extreme, to say the least.

Public Sector employees are not robots and, returning to your posting of the Civil Service Code of Conduct, there is empirical evidence that Civil Servants are influenced by their personal political views.

There is also a constructive suggestion here as to how this might be remedied without having to, "Get rid of all public institutions? More centralised government control? Direct voting on every aspect of public life?"

Public servants and political bias: Evidence from the UK civil service and the World Bank
11 Jan 2018
Stefan Dercon
Professor of Economic Policy, Blavatnik School of Government and Economics Department, University of Oxford

An experiment shows that public servants make errors when interpreting data, incorrectly concluding that it aligns with their ideological preferences

Extracts:

One of the most difficult challenges for promoting evidence-based policy is that politicians tend to have predetermined views of the world, often tainted by ideology. Recently, I finished a six-year spell as a UK civil servant, as chief economist of DFID, the UK government department responsible for international development policy and spending. UK civil servants have a strict code that stipulates that while they are serving and accountable to the political leadership of the country, they should also be impartial and make judgements based on the best evidence available, and not preconceived ideas. In my experience, the UK civil service code is not loose talk – it is taken very seriously by civil servants and politicians.

Researchers will not be too surprised by these results, but the size of the sample and their professional roles makes it at least interesting. These results definitely surprised UK civil servants – it showed that even in a simple assessment of data we could show they are not as impartial and evidence-based as they would claim to be. And the ideological bias is not simply due to politicians meddling based on their ideology, but linked to their own preferences.

To give them credit, a number of teams of government officials have responded by trying to avoid this. The remedy is not a guarantee for a cure, but worth trying. Independent peer review within departments, such as via an independent ‘quality assurance unit’ as in DFID, surely will play a role. Red teaming, in which one person in a team is expected to find all arguments against some proposal, is now also more widely practiced, I am told. But as with most behavioural biases, thinking a bit slower, taking stock, questioning one’s priors and showing some humility is a good start. This is not just important for public officials entrusted to use evidence for decision making, but all of us, including researchers. By the way, when did you last change your mind due to a piece of research or evidence?

Full article:
https://voxdev.org/topic/institutions-political-economy/public-servants-and-political-bias-evidence-uk-civil-service

TempestTost · 31/07/2024 01:17

KielderWater · 30/07/2024 16:31

It is perhaps unsurprising that that national institutions are left leaning when the whole concept of national institutions is a left wing one. The Conservative support for many of these institutions, regardless of if you think it goes far enough, shows how much to the left of American politics UK politics sit. Our mainstream right wing party (Conservatives) sits to the left of their mainstream left wing (Democrats).

Support for institutions and their social importance is very much a traditional conservative position.

DaisysChains · 31/07/2024 07:56

I got an email notification that a post of mine had been quoted

It has taken me a long time to read up to here because I did not want to jump in and respond to the quoting of my email in case I was misinterpreting the intention

I reject wholly my ‘status’ as a sexual assault survivor being cherry-picked out of my post and used as justification for a refusal to engage with another poster asking for just a list of reading sources

You did that Cassie whilst wholly ignoring the rest of my post which stated

that I had been excluded from “women’s” spaces when I needed them most by some left-wing females
that that experience has and is making my recovery significantly more difficult
and that despite that I had not gone to the far right because of it
but in fact had felt, and do feel, very lonely

that loneliness is because my need for my rights as a female to be upheld and supported has not been met by either ‘side’

Perhaps I should have been more explicitly clear - I have been excluded from most of public life because, perhaps well-meaning at first, left-leaning individuals who are employed by or work with organisations with direct power or influence on public services/spaces have decided that “women’s” spaces and services should include males and exclude females who need respite from males

I always associated right-leaning people with gender ideology in that they believed in distinct ‘males are/do this, females are/do that’ and males get to decide the breadth of responsibilities that females must shoulder and all the limitations they must live under

The shock and betrayal that I feel that left-leaning people - including left-leaning females who I had associated with championing female rights, now not only buy into that gender bullshit but have gone further by buying into and insisting males be allowed free reign in every aspect of a female's existence

because by doing so they are denying females any respite whatsoever from males gaze, presence, supervision, direction, involvement, access to our bodies - or even innermost thoughts on our trauma

It’s insidious, it’s absolutely institutional capture - right up to funders insisting males be included or services shut down.

And while it is ‘both sides’ for 100% sure the left - like women’s spaces - used to be a safe(r) option for females

And now have made it abundantly clear that, like the right, they want to support male wants over female needs

And anyone that objects is a bigot

I asked a female political rep from a left leaning party about female only services for rape victims and was called a bigot…

And here you are using my post about my trauma to deflect debate yet later on in this thread you question ‘what women’s spaces are’

I’m disgusted by the whole bloody shebang of arguing over who is the best feminist but using rape survivors as shields to cover yourself from criticism is really low Cassie and I am putting as much clear water between myself and you as I put between myself and racists like that TR man

because both of you are using the trauma of females abused by males to bolster your own agendas whilst simultaneously giving no fucks about how we feel about that - nevermind actually doing anything to address the root cause of our trauma

Males

CassieMaddox · 31/07/2024 08:57

GenderBlender · 29/07/2024 17:43

I really hope to fuck I am wrong, but I have a horrible feeling that some of your posts are going to age very badly, very quickly @CassieMaddox

What happened in Southport last night is a reason why none of us should be amplifying far right talking points. Or posting rubbish like this in the aftermath of a tragedy.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 31/07/2024 09:03

DaisysChains · 31/07/2024 07:56

I got an email notification that a post of mine had been quoted

It has taken me a long time to read up to here because I did not want to jump in and respond to the quoting of my email in case I was misinterpreting the intention

I reject wholly my ‘status’ as a sexual assault survivor being cherry-picked out of my post and used as justification for a refusal to engage with another poster asking for just a list of reading sources

You did that Cassie whilst wholly ignoring the rest of my post which stated

that I had been excluded from “women’s” spaces when I needed them most by some left-wing females
that that experience has and is making my recovery significantly more difficult
and that despite that I had not gone to the far right because of it
but in fact had felt, and do feel, very lonely

that loneliness is because my need for my rights as a female to be upheld and supported has not been met by either ‘side’

Perhaps I should have been more explicitly clear - I have been excluded from most of public life because, perhaps well-meaning at first, left-leaning individuals who are employed by or work with organisations with direct power or influence on public services/spaces have decided that “women’s” spaces and services should include males and exclude females who need respite from males

I always associated right-leaning people with gender ideology in that they believed in distinct ‘males are/do this, females are/do that’ and males get to decide the breadth of responsibilities that females must shoulder and all the limitations they must live under

The shock and betrayal that I feel that left-leaning people - including left-leaning females who I had associated with championing female rights, now not only buy into that gender bullshit but have gone further by buying into and insisting males be allowed free reign in every aspect of a female's existence

because by doing so they are denying females any respite whatsoever from males gaze, presence, supervision, direction, involvement, access to our bodies - or even innermost thoughts on our trauma

It’s insidious, it’s absolutely institutional capture - right up to funders insisting males be included or services shut down.

And while it is ‘both sides’ for 100% sure the left - like women’s spaces - used to be a safe(r) option for females

And now have made it abundantly clear that, like the right, they want to support male wants over female needs

And anyone that objects is a bigot

I asked a female political rep from a left leaning party about female only services for rape victims and was called a bigot…

And here you are using my post about my trauma to deflect debate yet later on in this thread you question ‘what women’s spaces are’

I’m disgusted by the whole bloody shebang of arguing over who is the best feminist but using rape survivors as shields to cover yourself from criticism is really low Cassie and I am putting as much clear water between myself and you as I put between myself and racists like that TR man

because both of you are using the trauma of females abused by males to bolster your own agendas whilst simultaneously giving no fucks about how we feel about that - nevermind actually doing anything to address the root cause of our trauma

Males

Right. Thanks for that.

I read your paragraph about "posters fighting about who was a better feminist" and decided responding to a post about reading lists was proving your point. Now I feel like a mug for trying to be respectful.

By the way I'm also an abuse survivor, as most women are. Of both childhood grooming and an sexually abusive marriage. That's why I took what you said seriously.

Talk about a kick in the teeth.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/07/2024 09:07

Now I feel like a mug for trying to be respectful.

You haven't been remotely respectful to anyone Cassie. Give it a rest. PP made a valid point, and gave her own experience.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/07/2024 09:19

CassieMaddox · 31/07/2024 08:57

What happened in Southport last night is a reason why none of us should be amplifying far right talking points. Or posting rubbish like this in the aftermath of a tragedy.

Somewhat ironical coming from a poster who spends countless hours creating threads and posts attempting to frame Mumsnet as hosting far right ideology.

Seems to me you are the poster predominantly responsible for amplifying far right ideology on this board with a constant stream of posts and threads about TR and right wing fascism. Some self reflection is long overdue.

DaisysChains · 31/07/2024 09:28

I read your paragraph about "posters fighting about who was a better feminist" and decided responding to a post about reading lists was proving your point. Now I feel like a mug for trying to be respectful

but you continued to fight about who was a better feminist and chose to use my post to refuse to respond to that single post only

that’s not respectful

and I’m not getting into top trumps of trauma at the hands of males so won’t be listing mine

if you really took what I said seriously, and with that long experience of sexual abuse, then you wouldn’t have used my trauma and twisted it for your own ends

you might have reflected on the common cause of abuse survivors needing their rights upheld and supported

or how the fighting and finger-pointing isolates those affected by abuse from even engaging

in case, once again, they are used, called names, and told I was doing it for you, you ungrateful bitch

Kick in the teeth indeed

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 31/07/2024 09:42

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/07/2024 09:19

Somewhat ironical coming from a poster who spends countless hours creating threads and posts attempting to frame Mumsnet as hosting far right ideology.

Seems to me you are the poster predominantly responsible for amplifying far right ideology on this board with a constant stream of posts and threads about TR and right wing fascism. Some self reflection is long overdue.

I’ve never known anyone to bring up TR/The Far Right on the FWR board except Cassie and The Real Feminists of Brighton.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/07/2024 10:02

I’ve never known anyone to bring up TR/The Far Right on the FWR board except Cassie and The Real Feminists of Brighton.

This.

woman2womanmeetswomanparrish · 31/07/2024 10:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Underthinker · 31/07/2024 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Nope.
So while sometimes I think Cassie exaggerates the risk of far right views influencing GC posts and spaces, this is the kind of thing she is right to warn us about.

Imnobody4 · 31/07/2024 10:38

I feel very uncomfortable about bringing what is a live and tragic situation into this discussion. Let's leave that until we have all the facts.

BackToLurk · 31/07/2024 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Violent male thugs came out to have a fight

Edited to add, maybe this type of post is where we end up when people who have been wondering how suddenly 'no one knows what a woman is' in the next breath appear to struggle to know what the far right is.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 31/07/2024 10:49

Imnobody4 · 31/07/2024 10:38

I feel very uncomfortable about bringing what is a live and tragic situation into this discussion. Let's leave that until we have all the facts.

Absolutely this.

(Male) violence is abhorrent whatever ‘cause’ is in their heads when committing it.

RoyalCorgi · 31/07/2024 10:58

What happened last night was an example of male violence, just as the original attack was an example of male violence.

EdithStourton · 31/07/2024 11:01

Imnobody4 · 31/07/2024 10:38

I feel very uncomfortable about bringing what is a live and tragic situation into this discussion. Let's leave that until we have all the facts.

This.

BackToLurk · 31/07/2024 11:05

RoyalCorgi · 31/07/2024 10:58

What happened last night was an example of male violence, just as the original attack was an example of male violence.

With the second lot of male violence helpfully trying to deflect attention from the overwhelming evidence that what perps have in common, above all else, is their sex.

KielderWater · 31/07/2024 11:08

What happened at Southport last night was the same as what happened at Leeds. Except the police showed up at Southport.

LilyBartsHatShop · 31/07/2024 11:13

"because by doing so they are denying females any respite whatsoever from males gaze, presence, supervision, direction, involvement, access to our bodies - or even innermost thoughts on our trauma"
Thanks for this, @DaisysChains you've put your finger on something I've never seen articulated before.
Surveillance state.
And thank you for risking the vulnerablitiy that comes with sharing parts of our stories. Your posts have been helpful for me.

KielderWater · 31/07/2024 11:14

CassieMaddox · 31/07/2024 09:03

Right. Thanks for that.

I read your paragraph about "posters fighting about who was a better feminist" and decided responding to a post about reading lists was proving your point. Now I feel like a mug for trying to be respectful.

By the way I'm also an abuse survivor, as most women are. Of both childhood grooming and an sexually abusive marriage. That's why I took what you said seriously.

Talk about a kick in the teeth.

‘Trying to be respectful’??!!

You have repeatedly called posters arseholes. (Don’t be disingenuous by pretending you don’t know what biscuits mean)

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 31/07/2024 11:20

LilyBartsHatShop · 31/07/2024 11:13

"because by doing so they are denying females any respite whatsoever from males gaze, presence, supervision, direction, involvement, access to our bodies - or even innermost thoughts on our trauma"
Thanks for this, @DaisysChains you've put your finger on something I've never seen articulated before.
Surveillance state.
And thank you for risking the vulnerablitiy that comes with sharing parts of our stories. Your posts have been helpful for me.

The surveillance state thing happens here on MN too - non site users repeatedly report us for wrong think (it’s why I change names so often) and an ‘AFAB non binary’ PhD candidate at Aston University is currently trying to prove how transphobic we all are via a mass data scrape (MN lawyers now involved).

CassieMaddox · 31/07/2024 11:37

KielderWater · 31/07/2024 11:14

‘Trying to be respectful’??!!

You have repeatedly called posters arseholes. (Don’t be disingenuous by pretending you don’t know what biscuits mean)

Biscuit on MN does not mean that at all. If it did @MNHQ would not have it in their approved list, given they don't allow personal attacks.

Stop trying to pick a fight.

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