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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

list nandy fucks up. again.

33 replies

lonelywater · 24/07/2024 01:47

just that. despite marginally promising signs of a recent return to planet earth she is now saying trans women (i.e. blokes) should compete against women in sport. Oh dear.

OP posts:
RickyBobbysKFC · 24/07/2024 01:57

Source?

lonelywater · 24/07/2024 02:00

RickyBobbysKFC · 24/07/2024 01:57

Source?

telegraph. sorry, cannot link to it right now.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 24/07/2024 02:35

List Nandy; well, she's certainly inclined towards the trans side...

Omlettes · 24/07/2024 06:27

Then I strongly suggest we all send her a link to this and ask her
Is this what you intend?
Hulking transgender athletes take gold, silver and bronze spots on female podium at Washington cycling championship

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13660579/transgender-athletes-female-Washinton-cycling-championship.html

Thingybob · 24/07/2024 06:56

I don't think she is quite saying that trans women should compete with women, she is saying individual bodies should be making the decisions. She has come a long way from when she thought TWA(always)W and now acknowledges that biology matters.

Ms Nandy said she wanted decision-makers to feel supported to make fair choices on trans inclusion.

She added: “But I think most have come to the conclusion that, although they want to be as inclusive as possible, biology does matter when it comes to sport, and that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring that they take biology into account.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2024 06:58

Thingybob · 24/07/2024 06:56

I don't think she is quite saying that trans women should compete with women, she is saying individual bodies should be making the decisions. She has come a long way from when she thought TWA(always)W and now acknowledges that biology matters.

Ms Nandy said she wanted decision-makers to feel supported to make fair choices on trans inclusion.

She added: “But I think most have come to the conclusion that, although they want to be as inclusive as possible, biology does matter when it comes to sport, and that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring that they take biology into account.

I mean, yes, her Overton window does appear to have shifted.

But we are still a long way from, "I cannot believe anyone ever thought that the personal, private, unverifiable feelings of a few self-selecting individuals were ever considered relevant to what sporting categories they should be allowed to compete in. Was there something in the water? Why were so many people taken in by this madness?"

StripeySuperNova · 24/07/2024 07:28

Labour were clear before the election that they thought it should be down to individual sporting bodies to decide rules around trans inclusion in the female category. Nandy is following this policy. The reality of this policy is that women have to spend their time, energy and money fighting individual sporting bodies that write inclusion policies that disadvantage women.

Listen to this interview with Lynne Pinches (she comes in at about the 30min mark) talking about her court case against her pool association. She lists all the ways in which men have an advantage in her sport - larger hands for bridging, longer reach, different hip configuration for leaning over the table, power, etc, etc. And she isn't even allowed to bring up any social advantages a man might have. It is just ridiculous that women have to fight this in order to have a fair chance at sport.

This is what Labour are promoting. They will not stand up for women and say women need fair sport and that means a female only category.

Imnobody4 · 24/07/2024 08:29

It's going to be the same with all single sex spaces except perhaps hospitals. 'It's for the provider to decide not the government'

Brainworm · 24/07/2024 08:32

But we are still a long way from, "I cannot believe anyone ever thought that the personal, private, unverifiable feelings of a few self-selecting individuals were ever considered relevant to what sporting categories they should be allowed to compete in.

I think it's mostly tunnel vision that led people like Nandy to the positions the took up (take up). They zoom in on the experience of the trans people and think that extreme positioning (such as allowing males in single sex sport, prisons, rape crisis centres) is actually what is needed to enable a 'live and let live' position.

Through my work, I know quite a lot of young people with trans identities. They are very vulnerable. I am firmly against the males accessing female only provision (this is not the solution), but just saying 'use the male's' is not workable. Many/most are not be using any public facilities anyway (other than hospital wards) as they self isolate, and their treatment involves helping them engage in activities of daily living in public spaces. They are petrified of male only spaces - understandably!

When people like Nandy have these sorts of patients in mind, the conclusions they draw are fundamentally wrong- but they hold in mind different trans people than most posters on this board.

334bu · 24/07/2024 08:37

When people like Nandy have these sorts of patients in mind, the conclusions they draw are fundamentally wrong- but they hold in mind different trans people than most posters on this board.

So advocate for third spaces! LN by being absolutist is putting vulnerable women at risk of serious harm. If she is incapable of joined up thinking, she should be nowhere near a job with such responsibility.

Wehadabetamax · 24/07/2024 08:38

They are petrified of male only spaces - understandably!

They are petrified because they are told to be. They are told that they will be attacked if they enter a male space even though there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that happening.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2024 08:40

Brainworm · 24/07/2024 08:32

But we are still a long way from, "I cannot believe anyone ever thought that the personal, private, unverifiable feelings of a few self-selecting individuals were ever considered relevant to what sporting categories they should be allowed to compete in.

I think it's mostly tunnel vision that led people like Nandy to the positions the took up (take up). They zoom in on the experience of the trans people and think that extreme positioning (such as allowing males in single sex sport, prisons, rape crisis centres) is actually what is needed to enable a 'live and let live' position.

Through my work, I know quite a lot of young people with trans identities. They are very vulnerable. I am firmly against the males accessing female only provision (this is not the solution), but just saying 'use the male's' is not workable. Many/most are not be using any public facilities anyway (other than hospital wards) as they self isolate, and their treatment involves helping them engage in activities of daily living in public spaces. They are petrified of male only spaces - understandably!

When people like Nandy have these sorts of patients in mind, the conclusions they draw are fundamentally wrong- but they hold in mind different trans people than most posters on this board.

But there needs to be a discussion about how trans people's needs can be met separately. Which might result in a conclusion that their needs cannot be met at all, depending on what those needs are. If they feel that what they need is to be in single sex spaces for the opposite sex and that an additional neutral space is not acceptable, at that point it should be OK to say, "Well, we tried, but we can't meet your needs. You need to reframe your needs so they don't infringe on other people's."

There is no "different trans people". A trans person is just any person who says for whatever reason that they identify as a member of the opposite sex.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2024 08:42

Wehadabetamax · 24/07/2024 08:38

They are petrified of male only spaces - understandably!

They are petrified because they are told to be. They are told that they will be attacked if they enter a male space even though there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that happening.

I don't believe for a single second that someone like India Willoughby or Eddie Izzard is petrified of male spaces, let alone someone like Karen White.

UpThePankhurst · 24/07/2024 08:58

Certainly some of the local TW are huge, well over six foot, one in particular is often high, and they are people you'd get out of the way of fast because of being well known of shouting a whole lot of abuse at any perceived provocation. No, I don't think anyone could reasonably think they'd be 'vulnerable' in a male toilet or changing room, I suspect other men would be wary of them, but better wary than the fucking terrifying that women would find them in an enclosed space. I also think they'd be less likely to tip from aggressive shouting to actual violence with men who might retaliate. The mini skirts don't reduce the size, the strength and the very male attitudes and aggression. Even if they were tiny little sweet and harmless flowers, why should women have to endure that, plus the loss of dignity and privacy and ability to be apart from men when undressed, just because the male's emotional needs matter and apparently female ones don't?

If this is going to be Labour's approach to women's spaces and resources then they're going to find fast that it doesn't work. Nandy seems to be trying out a sweet, kind, 'well people CAN opt out and create female only if they want to, or force females to subordinate themselves and hand over their resources to males if they want to' as if it's all lovely free choice. Which completely steps away from all responsibility and happily identifies that the mad pressure on anything at all trying to use the EqA exceptions ensures only the bravest even try it.

In fact, this 'la la la la' fingers in ears while smiling approach just tacitly enables male dominance over women and the destruction of women's resources while not having to get dainty hands dirty or actually engage with it. It's taking a side without having the guts to own it.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 24/07/2024 09:10

Thingybob · 24/07/2024 06:56

I don't think she is quite saying that trans women should compete with women, she is saying individual bodies should be making the decisions. She has come a long way from when she thought TWA(always)W and now acknowledges that biology matters.

Ms Nandy said she wanted decision-makers to feel supported to make fair choices on trans inclusion.

She added: “But I think most have come to the conclusion that, although they want to be as inclusive as possible, biology does matter when it comes to sport, and that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring that they take biology into account.

But these are all weasel words to avoid the government 'getting their hands dirty'.

What does 'supported to make fair choices' even mean?

What's fair about allowing men into women's sport, at all?

What would be 'supporting governing bodies to make fair choices' is making it clear that the government says all people have to compete in the appropriate sex category - not just the boring, non trans identified ones!

Anything else is patently unfair to women.

Anything else is going to destroy women's sport. There is no middle ground here.

But she won't say it. Ergo she is supporting/ enabling this destruction of women's sport.

Floisme · 24/07/2024 09:17

I don't find it as hard as some posters to believe that transwomen might feel vulnerable in men's spaces, I just don't think it's women's problem to fix and it seriously pisses me off that we're expected to.

Snowypeaks · 24/07/2024 09:38

UpThePankhurst · 24/07/2024 08:58

Certainly some of the local TW are huge, well over six foot, one in particular is often high, and they are people you'd get out of the way of fast because of being well known of shouting a whole lot of abuse at any perceived provocation. No, I don't think anyone could reasonably think they'd be 'vulnerable' in a male toilet or changing room, I suspect other men would be wary of them, but better wary than the fucking terrifying that women would find them in an enclosed space. I also think they'd be less likely to tip from aggressive shouting to actual violence with men who might retaliate. The mini skirts don't reduce the size, the strength and the very male attitudes and aggression. Even if they were tiny little sweet and harmless flowers, why should women have to endure that, plus the loss of dignity and privacy and ability to be apart from men when undressed, just because the male's emotional needs matter and apparently female ones don't?

If this is going to be Labour's approach to women's spaces and resources then they're going to find fast that it doesn't work. Nandy seems to be trying out a sweet, kind, 'well people CAN opt out and create female only if they want to, or force females to subordinate themselves and hand over their resources to males if they want to' as if it's all lovely free choice. Which completely steps away from all responsibility and happily identifies that the mad pressure on anything at all trying to use the EqA exceptions ensures only the bravest even try it.

In fact, this 'la la la la' fingers in ears while smiling approach just tacitly enables male dominance over women and the destruction of women's resources while not having to get dainty hands dirty or actually engage with it. It's taking a side without having the guts to own it.

Perfectly articulated, thanks!

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2024 09:49

Nandy seems to be trying out a sweet, kind, 'well people CAN opt out and create female only if they want to, or force females to subordinate themselves and hand over their resources to males if they want to' as if it's all lovely free choice. Which completely steps away from all responsibility and happily identifies that the mad pressure on anything at all trying to use the EqA exceptions ensures only the bravest even try it.

I imagine this is Nandy's way of taking the heat out of the culture wars - ie pass the responsibility onto someone else and hope it goes away.

She's got a steep learning curve in front of her...

MarkWithaC · 24/07/2024 09:51

Floisme · 24/07/2024 09:17

I don't find it as hard as some posters to believe that transwomen might feel vulnerable in men's spaces, I just don't think it's women's problem to fix and it seriously pisses me off that we're expected to.

Yes, quite. Leaving aside actual stats (which currently seem to suggest no raised risk in men's spaces), why aren't trans bodies and individuals lobbying hard for third spaces and/or less male aggression and greater male tolerance?
And TBH, if someone is vulnerable enough because of their trans identity that they are self-isolating from the whole world, they need proper, serious help, not just someone to say, 'Sure, use the women's.'

334bu · 24/07/2024 09:54

I don't find it as hard as some posters to believe that transwomen might feel vulnerable in men's spaces, I just don't think it's women's problem to fix and it seriously pisses me off that we're expected to.

Exactly , not our problem!

Let trans activists , Lisa Nandy and all those who just want us all " to be kind" advocate for third places and the problem would be solved.

UpThePankhurst · 24/07/2024 10:04

MarkWithaC · 24/07/2024 09:51

Yes, quite. Leaving aside actual stats (which currently seem to suggest no raised risk in men's spaces), why aren't trans bodies and individuals lobbying hard for third spaces and/or less male aggression and greater male tolerance?
And TBH, if someone is vulnerable enough because of their trans identity that they are self-isolating from the whole world, they need proper, serious help, not just someone to say, 'Sure, use the women's.'

And women who feel strongly that they wish to nurture and protect these men are perfectly free to go into the men's facilities with them. No one is stopping them.

GreenTeaLikesMe · 24/07/2024 10:05

As PP said, the Overton window has clearly shifted on this one.

We need to keep the pressure up on the government.

SinnerBoy · 24/07/2024 16:32

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Today 08:40
Brainworm · Today 08:32

If they feel that what they need is to be in single sex spaces for the opposite sex and that an additional neutral space is not acceptable, at that point it should be OK to say, "Well, we tried, but we can't meet your needs. You need to reframe your needs so they don't infringe on other people's."

How very well put.

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