Tinkerbell syndrome, pronoun badges and trans existence

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Inspired by some posts in a now-full thread:

Someone in the workplace who is trans is literally existing as trans in public. Yet we are told that disagreeing with accessories like pronoun badges means we don't want transpeople to exist in public.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson? Is not noticing the badge transphobic? As most people, including those with specific protected characteristics and including most transpeople to be honest, don't wear badges announcing their identity, does this mean they don't exist in public?

I would argue the sole purpose of pronoun badges is to involve others in the validation of a specific type of trans identity whether they consent to this or not and even if they don't understand they have been allocated as having a supporting role in someone else's main-character life. But speaking on a personal level, I have my own priorities and interests - I find it an imposition to be subjected to the macroaggression of being expected to change my natural language processes for someone who will never be part of my concerns.

(I don't normally start threads so if I don't come back I'm not shaving my hairy feet, I've probably forgotten or something)

FFS what did I get deleted for this time?

Yes, and where the actual JUDGE stops proceedings in court to admonish the VICTIM and the court officials for referring to a male rapist as "he" and not respecting the preferred pronouns of the accused.

Thin end of the wedge like I said.

Just interested in how very many times @CassieMaddox has managed to fit the initials KJK into their posts. Almost as if they were angling for something.

Whatever you do don't take a drink of alcohol every time it happens, it would not end well

Wise advice. Thank you.

The whole point of pronoun badges is to affect you. There would be no point whatsoever in wearing them if they didn't.

Yes, and where the actual JUDGE stops proceedings in court to admonish the VICTIM and the court officials for referring to a male rapist as "he" and not respecting the preferred pronouns of the accused.

Thin end of the wedge like I said.

Absolutely. But, but, but according to some it is just being polite, not very fucking polite or nice or kind to the victim though is it, but ah what do they matter when misgendering is at stake.

Being trans seems to be simply 'I have an idea in my head that I am the opposite sex'. Since what is happening is simply an idea in their head, why does anyone else need to know about it, let alone pretend to believe that the person has changed sex?

Quite. If I'm not expected to acknowledge it, why exactly is "misgendering" an issue?

Sorry meant to quote you @OldCrone

Quite. If I'm not expected to acknowledge it, why exactly is "misgendering" an issue?

Yet another illogicality and contradiction, they are never ending.

That is an amazing idea! 🤪

Blimey, someone studied evolutionary biology eh?

How was that possible with such a loose grasp of logic (liberal use of straw men, bad company argument and fan of the false analogy).

I wonder if it was at Aston university?!

Magdalen Berns

The problem is that the words for sex and gender, two clearly different things, are inexplicably the same. Therefore if I correctly call a trans women "he" because of his sex, which is different to mine, a fact that I as a feminist consider significant to my lived experience and self identity, he may interpret that incorrectly as my misgendering him.

Since neither of us is wrong, not me about his sex nor him about his gender, how can this be resolved?

The obvious answer is to not use the same words for sex and gender. If trans women were not called "she" and indeed not called "woman" - reserving those words for their original meaning of sex - and we had brand new pronouns and labels for the feelings of gender that were not tied to sex at all but could be used the same way by both men and women who share a specific gender identity, then not only would the distress of misgendering be entirely avoided, but the controversial issues of access to women's spaces, rights and sports would also just go away because without the dual meaning of these words the question of men having access to women's resources because of their feelings of gender would never have arisen.

Note than none of this in any way dismisses or invalidates trans women's feelings of gender. It simply clarifies that gender is not the same thing as sex, the proof for which is that trans people exist.

Not to mention being told to refer to her rapist as "she" in court.

FlirtsWithRhinos

Using the same words is the whole point. Genderists want to overwrite sex with gender. They invented words like "transgender" but insist that the words used for sex mean gender and always have meant gender.

It's like third spaces. They're not interested in third spaces because they want to colonise our spaces.

If...we had brand new pronouns and labels for the feelings of gender that were not tied to sex at all but could be used the same way by both men and women who share a specific gender identity...

Nope, still doesn't work. We recognise 'she's because they are female, and 'he's because they are male. How would you know whether a male was a 'he' or a 'xe' or an 'ey'? How would you know whether a female was a 'she' or a 'fae' or an 'ey'? Fair enough, invent different labels for males who believe they are not men - Woman is taken - and for females who believe they are not women - similarly, Man is taken - but pronouns cannot change because they are the speaker's, not the person to whom the speaker refers. When somebody uses a 3rd person pronoun, they are describing what they perceive, not what the other person believes.

How would you know whether a male was a 'he' or a 'xe' or an 'ey'? How would you know whether a female was a 'she' or a 'fae' or an 'ey'?

A man would always be a "he" but could also be a 'xe' or an 'ey', or indeed a 'fae'. Just never a "she".

And because "he" is nothing more or less than a sex based pronoun, it's always ok to use it. But if a man prefers people to use his gender pronoun - well that is when pronoun badges make actual sense :)

Or maybe once we disconnect gender from sex, it'll be obvious than gender identity aligns with clothes - who knows? Maybe all the people who like to wear fezs will decide they are a gender. Makes as much sense as anything, doesn't hurt anyone and frankly makes more sense than plemty of other things people do.

The key thing is everyone stops using the words for sex to mean anything other than sex.

I get that. But that's not our problem to solve. Challenge them not on whether their gender identity exists but on why it needs to have the same name as sex when trans people are living proof that sex and gender are different.

That's your inference, not implication on my part. When I say I, im talking about me. I'm not talking about anyone else. I defend freedom of belief, freedom of expression and am a long time women's rights activist.

How do you feel about those who attempt to police the wearing of pronoun badges?

It's not the wearing of the badge. It's the expectation that people will alter their speech patterns to validate the wearer.

Ok, I see what you are saying but they will not give straight answers!

The implication was clear and you are not the first to make it - I've seen it many times on these boards.

@Circumferences

At the end of the day, if you look like a woman people are going to call you "she" and if you look like a man people will call you "he".

If you have an internal gender identity that completely contradicts reality, people are going to misgender you regardless of a badge, but you'll never know because people tend not to use "he/she" to your face. So these badges really are just political signalling which is really inappropriate in the workplace.

Some people do blur the lines, though. Some look quite androgynous; others don't bear any traditional signals of gender; some do bear the opposite signals of gender than what their physical body is telling me. In those circumstances a badge is helpful to everyone.