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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Review of suicides and gender dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust

161 replies

Signalbox · 19/07/2024 16:39

Some very good news. Transpires that Jolyon's claim of increased suicides since puberty blockers were banned is incorrect.

Review of Suicides and Gender Dysphoria at the Tavi and Portman NHS Trust: Independent Report.

By Professor Louis Appleby, University of Manchester
Department of Health and Social Care adviser on suicide prevention

Aim of this review
I have reviewed data provided by NHS England (NHSE) on suicides by young patients of the gender services at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, based on an audit at the trust. The specific aim is to examine evidence for a large rise in suicides claimed by campaigners.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

Review of suicides and gender dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust: independent report

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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JanesLittleGirl · 21/07/2024 22:34

The one thing that shines through to me is Professor Appleby's humanity. What a wonderful human being.

lcakethereforeIam · 21/07/2024 22:59

Yes. He seems a lovely, empathetic man.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/07/2024 07:24

Igneococcus · 22/07/2024 06:09

I have put this sharetoken into the Jolyon thread already but it fits here too. Libby Purves' comment in the Times today:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/2f8a4fd5-28e5-43f5-8959-d710a10accfe?shareToken=d99097b9913c6b75ee87db02f3235d96

That's a very powerful article.

borntobequiet · 22/07/2024 08:09

Thank you for the link. Powerful and heartfelt writing.

duc748 · 22/07/2024 12:35

It is. I didn't understand the reference to “Young Werther”, though, could anyone clarify?

AnnaMagnani · 22/07/2024 15:24

Werther is the leading character in The Sorrows of Young Werther, a massive best seller in the 1770s and a foundational text of German literature.

Werther is a sensitive young man who wanders about generally being teenage, falling in love and finding this intensely painful. He eventually kills himself as he is so upset that the object of his affections is married to someone else. It is strongly hinted that she dies as well, despondent that Werther has died (despite him essentially making her miserable for most of the plot)

This caused a huge craze of soppy aristocratic men, idling about in blue velvet jackets talking about how they were tormented by love. While the fashion craze was OK, the copycat suicides were not and the movement was heavily criticised as self-indulgent.

While I haven't read the book, I have seen the opera and honestly a more annoying and self-centred character it is hard to imagine.

duc748 · 22/07/2024 16:03

Obviously, I was thinking of Werther's Originals! 😀

AnnaMagnani · 22/07/2024 16:12

Honestly by the end of the opera, I was ready to go and kill the manipulative little shit myself.

It's a good analogy as Werther is a young man, wrecks others relationships,and spends a lot of time threatening to kill himself to get his own way. This is so popular that a lot of Werther merch is made, the book gets banned in some countries and some of the suicides do it dressed in their Werther outfits.

lcakethereforeIam · 22/07/2024 16:56

Werthers unoriginals!

Delphin · 22/07/2024 17:56

Lucky you, in Germany it's standard reading in 11-12 th grade. (For some reason, we didn't ' we read Woyzeck instead)

ReliablyMum · 23/07/2024 20:06

https://x.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1815770950710763866

People have raised clarifying q’s about my review of suicides in young gender dysphoria patients.

And there have been a number of - let’s call them misunderstandings.

A short summary then, tracking from aim to data source to conclusions.🧵

First though, a reminder that in my research unit we always start with.

The numbers we are examining are real lives lost.

No suicide figure, high or low, rising or falling, is acceptable.

The aim.

For this we have to refer to campaigners’ claims of a large rise in suicide in GIDS patients at the Tavistock - repeatedly called an “explosion.”

Imprecise maybe but implying something huge & unmistakable.

The cause was said to be denial of puberty-blocking drugs.

So the fundamental question was whether this “explosion” was evident in the data.

Not about risk in gender dysphoria overall - it’s high.

Or about the evidence on puberty blockers generally.

Data source

To answer this q, I was provided with details of an audit of deaths in GIDS patients, carried out by the Tavistock itself, covering several years.

The audit was the official source of relevant data.

There was no sign of an “explosion”.

Figures varied year on year, as you tend to find with small numbers - a problem familiar to every researcher.
Details varied. There was no single cause.

Several had died while waiting to be seen - no treatment had been denied. Others were somewhere else on the care pathway.

Many had faced profound adversity & poor mental health. Sad, complex lives ending in tragedy

Conclusion

No increase. The data did not support the claims.

It’s true, data quality needs to improve, so that we can all be confident in future findings.

And we need a more responsible public discourse.

x.com

https://x.com/ProfLAppleby/status/1815770950710763866

GailBlancheViola · 23/07/2024 21:16

Sheer class from Prof. Appleby.

AnnaMagnani · 23/07/2024 21:19

@Delphin between Werther and Woyzeck this is not giving a great impression of German literature.

I have refused to go to the opera version of Woyzeck, after being conned by DH into seeing the atonal misogynistic hellhole that is Lulu.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2024 21:46

seeing the atonal misogynistic hellhole that is Lulu.

I don't know, she did win the Eurovision Song Contest and duet with Take That Wink Grin

lcakethereforeIam · 23/07/2024 21:48

🤣

AnnaMagnani · 23/07/2024 21:52

Not sure which is worse TBH 😂

OK must stop derailing the thread.

BryanAdamsMuddyCassocks · 23/07/2024 21:59

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

AnnaMagnani · 23/07/2024 22:03

Even the lovely Rolando Villazon acting and singing his socks off and looking extremely fit in his blue jacket could not cover up the incel vibes.

BryanAdamsMuddyCassocks · 23/07/2024 22:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2024 22:10

I've read his manifesto and I had a feeling you meant him.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 27/07/2024 16:42

It’s a week since the Govt published my report on suicide in young people with gender dysphoria. What did the reaction tell us about the necessary dialogue with the public on issues of evidence?

First, a reminder of the wider suicide prevention task, beyond the focus of my report & the specific suicide claim it addressed. Young people distressed over gender may be at risk. And we are likely to see a rise in their number, reflecting a broader social trend.

The “evidence base” is a key tenet of modern health care. But what happens when evidence & opinion clash? Especially on social media, increasingly designed, it seems, to thrive on discord.

Here, I can tell you, is how it goes:

  • I disagree with your conclusions.
  • Your review of evidence was rigged.
  • You have an agenda.
  • You’re part of a cover-up.

How do we go from this to a productive discussion of data? Some researchers give up, it’s not worth it, the ad hominem attacks scattered along the laughable-sinister spectrum. Understandable perhaps - but it leaves the stage clear for charlatans & misinformation.

Instead, we need to be able to talk honestly about evidence. Every dataset has flaws. Which is why every academic paper has a section on its limitations. There are uncertainties that statistical tests are designed to address. We -researchers- are purveyors of uncertainty.

The problem with public discussion of evidence is not uncertainty but certainty - because it is a sign of bias. We - all of us - need to understand our own bias. Beware certainty.

And in an age where information comes at us from every angle, we need to spot dubious data. Online surveys, self-selected samples, small numbers, unreliable sources. Even - especially - when the findings tell us what we want to hear.

We have to be particularly careful when discussing evidence on suicide. There are risks in making alarming claims, risks of identification & imitation, to which young people appear most susceptible. My report quoted below.

We have to be particularly careful when discussing evidence on suicide. There are risks in making alarming claims, risks of identification & imitation, to which young people appear most susceptible. My report quoted below.

But there is now a mirror-image risk, that unsubstantiated suicide claims are too easy to make & essential to any story about mental health. An apparent validation no claim is complete without. There were, for example, countless bogus suicide claims in the pandemic (below).

I examined the Tavistock’s own figures (yes, including some who died on the waiting list). There was no suicide “explosion” as claimed. And no single cause to these tragic young deaths. Suicide is complex.

I also called for better evidence in future. Young people & their worried families deserve it. And a positive public dialogue depends on it.

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GailBlancheViola · 27/07/2024 16:51

More from Louis Appleby. It must be coming so apparent by now that advocates for PBs are a bunch of science denying ideologues...

and relentless in peddling their lies and nonsense. I am hoping this is a major wake up call for the Labour Government of what exactly has been going on for so long.

Louis Appleby sounds very tired of trying to reason with blinkered, prejudiced, dangerous fools as he is right to be.

UpThePankhurst · 27/07/2024 17:45

The realisation will eventually dawn that the struggle is expecting rationality and reason and facts to be able to register with a belief system that believes reality is constructed by feelings. And that anyone mentioning unwanted information that shakes those feelings is a 'hater' doing something wrong who should be erased.

It's the same conflict across every point of tension on this ideology. That individual choice and freedom of self expression can be respected. But there necessarily must be objective boundaries set as to how far this self expression can go, and it cannot be unlimited and entirely divorced from objective reality.

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