How do they not 'get it'

[EllenLRipley]

I was talking to a family member and they broadly agree with me re women's rights and single sex spaces but feel the debate is 'exaggerated' and 'overblown'. This person deeply cares about me. This persons sister(17) was in hospital and DF had to argue to ensure she was not put on a mixed sex ward over night. Only when he said he was staying all night to keep her safe did they find a female bed for her. I have a condition that is likely to lead to paralysis. I am likely to spend periods in hospital within the next 20 years. But he cannot seem to see that we are directly adversely effected and frankly frightened about going into hospital if a trans identified male is on the ward. Karen White lived 2 miles from this family members home but he still doesn't seem to be able to shake the view that 'this doesn't really happen' or 'the real issue is the Torys defunding the hospitals/prisons/schools" etc.

How does this mindset work? Is this cognitive dissonance?

You’ve repeated mentioned the cause ; ‘He’.

He doesn't care as much as you think he does.

"The debate is overblown" is a meaningless thing to say. The number of people talking about something rarely has any correlation as to whether it's true or not or is risky to those involved.

It sounds like he just doesn't really understand risk and how prioritising reducing various risks differs between people.

Besides, at the heart of the debate is who is defined as a man or woman - that affects everyone.

Thanks

"The debate is overblown" how many women and girls have to be raped in hospitals, shelters, anywhere, for it to be serious? What's his acceptable number of victims, and of rapists allowed in to what should be single-sex places?

Is he saying that men can turn themselves into women.

Or is he saying he knows men can't turn themselves into women but doesn't care how that affects women.

It has to be one or the other.

A lot of people just don't care until it personally affects them, it's as simple as that.

Because he's a he.

None of it affects his life in the slightest.

No, not at all - he is very clear that they cannot and that the gender critical stance is correct.

So is he saying Karen White, Isla Blair et al don't count, and more importantly their victims don't count?

I have a male friend like this. He firmly believes that hospital managers/prison wardens etc will be able to tell who is going to be a danger/isn't really trans and stop them. I have explained that's not how it works but he doesn't believe me.

Does he count AGPs as "really trans" or "not really trans"? 🤔

I don't think he considers them at all. His image of tw is very much of the effeminate, "born in the wrong body" type.

He doesn't get it, because he doesn't want to.

If he did want to, he'd then see there were issues he might be forced to care about and verbalise.

But he doesn't because its less effort than to give a shit.

Honestly, even the nicest, most switched on men don't really see 'women's issues' as all that important. They may get your point, they may even agree with you, but when push comes to shove it's all a bit niche, a bit secondary. Certainly not as important as the 'real' issues', i.e. the ones that affect men. It's incredibly disappointing when you realise it, but the maxim 'man is the it, woman is the other' runs deep.

He understands AGP and thinks they are male perverts trying to access women's spaces.

He does not think males should be allowed in women's spaces, he just thinks it's silly to be so het up about it.

I got upset because I was making a totally unrelated point about Gaza and he said "OHHHHHH David Lammy is GREAT, he will sort it all out" as a kind of hilarious trolling comment as he knows I despise Lammy due to his grotesque misogyny. I accused him of trolling me, and pointed out how worried women were - genuinely frightened and it was not a joke to us. And asked him not to joke about us having a government with so many on the Trans bandwagon. And it was all very 'calm down dear'. Which is what always happens.

Yes this is it, I feel.
"it is bad, but not that bad"
Hmmm

As already said above. A lot of men genuinely don't get it. They see what is clearly a man and agree that he shouldn't be in a woman's prison but they just don't seem to understand the gravity of it or think it's not that bad.

I don’t think most men realize how constantly on guard women have to be and how draining that is.

If he was sent to prison and found out that his much larger and stronger cell mate was in for raping men, would he feel safe sharing a cell?

If that cell mate raped another man in prison, had years added to his sentence and then was put back in his cell, would he feel that he had any right to complain?

If he did complain and was told that his cell mate 'hardly ever' rapes men in prison, it was just a one off, would he be satisfied with that answer?

I don't think it's a man thing at all. My DH definitely gets it but it's all the women who don't get it that baffles me.

I think there's an issue with men generally not being willing to acknowledge the threat that they (males) as a group pose to women, that VAWG is a problem of male violence. Hence the downplaying and minimising of women's concerns in this issue. Obviously if it affects 'their women' then all hell breaks loose, but generally there's a complete unwillingness to turn a mirror on themselves and acknowledge that they are the problem.

My Dh gets it but honestly, it took him long enough.

His opinion is that men have a limitless ability to empathise with other men, often well beyond the point this is sensible.

Absolutely. I've experienced this personally from men. When you say men commit the vast vast majority of violence, rapes, murder, start the wars they go on the defense. And not surprisingly start acting and talking in an aggressive manner.

Definitely something in this. Much to think about.