Scientific research that questions sex being binary

[Tootingbec]

Hello!

Was in convo with a colleague who mentioned there is now quite a considerable body of scientific knowledge/research that demonstrates that biological sex is a spectrum.

I nodded away and avoided getting into a debate at this stage.

But what is this research? Does anyone who understands genetics and biology on here know if this research is decent? Any good take down from the majority scientific community that you would recommend?

I have a vague memory of someone countering the sex is a spectrum argument with “just because some people are born with an extra finger….”

Help! Want to be able to talk cogently about why the research is wonky

There isn't
but
the best way to highlight the insanity of such a view is to
ask about racehorse breeding
or dairy farming
or Rhino conservation
take it to other mammals and watch their arguments stop in their tracks

I think you should ask your colleague to link to this 'research' as it sounds like nonsense

It's usually clownfish or intersex. Possibly both.

Just go "really? How fascinating, can you send me this research?"

Ask him about the different gametes that are produced in different parts of this spectrum.

Extra finger due to small gene pool nothing to do with sex bloody hell. And i thought science was dumbed down in my day

Ok - I hear you! I googled the topic and got the Scientific American article. But I am not scientifically trained so couldn’t determine if what they were saying was valid or not.

So my conclusion is “sex is binary but within that there are variations - like all species- but only women can have eggs and only men produce sperm - there is no third/fourth/ad infinitum sex categories”

https://medium.com/@andylewis_67584/is-sex-a-spectrum-e3f34d6afa58

^ This is a good read

Well you know people are either male or female so why not just say so?

Colin Wright article:
https://www.city-journal.org/article/understanding-the-sex-binary

Paradox Institute video and transcript drawing on Colin Wright and Emma Hilton's work:

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/watch/why-sex-is-binary

Hopefully something helpful in these for you

I am a human geneticist. Can you link to the scientific America article please and I can summarise.

http://web.archive.org/web/20201101044102/theelectricagora.com/2020/06/02/on-sex-and-gender-identity-perspectives-from-biology-neuroscience-and-philosophy/

^ This too for a more technical discussion

This is the one I started reading and it all sounds quite plausible but I studied French Literature so ……!

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

https://x.com/ClaireAinsworth/status/888365994577735680

"In your piece 'Sex Redefined' are you making the claim there are more than two sexes?"

"No, not at all. Two sexes, with a continuum of variation in anatomy/physiology."

If I had enough money I could get a team of 'experts' to put research together that proves that grass is red. Or that fish don't swim. Or that dogs don't bark. Etc. at some point we have to accept the reality that is self evident and if a person cannot do that then you cannot help them or have a reasonable discussion with them.

Basically, the article says, because biological 'freaks' exist...that makes sex not binary...? no...
That makes people born with defects. Like the aforementioned person born with an extra finger. They're a biological anomaly/mutation/error etc.

I would be tempted to say 'a credible scientist has concrete proof that human beings, up until now classified as a binary species whose sex classes are immutable, are in fact not. Good God! That must be the biggest find in all human history! The person who found this out must have been laden down with Nobel prizes/scientific awards/had glowing, exualtive articles written about them in the major newspapers worldwide. I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about this paradigm shifting evidence!'

Or

'What is the name of the third gamete?'

Or

'You wouldn't be co-opting the experiences of those with DSD's in order to make some sort of horrible (incorrect) point that they are neither male or female or are less male or female?'

But then, even the ones who spout the Scientific American article have backed off a bit. See also the 'common as red heads nonsense'.

Some kittens are born with only three legs.
Cats are still quadrupeds.

Some cows are infertile (see Clarkson's Farm)
but only males can inseminate

This was one of the first things I read to make sure I understood the facts on things. It’s ‘only’ a blog, but it’s written by Dr Emma Hilton, a developmental biologist:

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2019/07/22/from-humans-to-asparagus-females-are-females/

The article is quite interesting but the only new info in it that I hadn't already heard is that cells cross the placenta and can persist in the parent and child for a very long time.

The rest of the article is trying to say that there is a spectrum of totally xx to totally xy with a range of people in between but actually they state that cases where people have a genuine mix of cells, other than a few hanhing around from birth are rare.

They then explain that sex cells, i.e. the cells in the testes and ovary aren't stuck as that cell type and can change. But again this only happens when there is a gene which is broken which is rare.

They also point out at one point that we are starting to understand that cells with xx behave fundamentally differently than cells with xy. Which is very interesting as a lot of historic research carried out on cells from a very famous lady called Herietta lack and so all those results will have less relevance to men and may actually be totally inaccurate for them.

What they mean is that biological sex is not as black and white as we though. But in reality it is still a binomial distribution. 99.9999% of people can still easily be placed in one of the two categories..then they sort of try to make the article more exciting by suggesting that we need to be more thoughtful and accepting of people who don't fit into the clear categories. Which I agree with. But they do it in a way which totally ignores the conflicts of interests that that would raise.

Obviously I haven't summarised everything but that is the jist.

Happy to clarify particular bits of anyone would like

So you need 3 humans to conceive a child?
You need a man, a woman and a woman with short pink hair and a bow tie?

There are various types of atypical sex development scenarios.

But XX and XY or even SRY genes are not what sex is, anymore than having wider hips or an Adam’s Apple. None of those things are relevant to crocodiles or cannabis plants but they are have two sexes. Even in snails, which are hermaphrodites, there are still only two sexes within that snail.

Sex is about gamete type, everything else is just window dressing.