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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response

356 replies

Fenlandia · 14/07/2024 12:05

https://x.com/wesstreeting/status/1812435914473295927

x.com

https://x.com/wesstreeting/status/1812435914473295927

OP posts:
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33
WarriorN · 15/07/2024 17:40

Did he really @misscockerspaniel ? Did he say that?

misscockerspaniel · 15/07/2024 17:46

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 17:40

Did he really @misscockerspaniel ? Did he say that?

(Sorry, I posted this yesterday on another thread so did not re-post)

Yes, it was seeing the abuse that Rosie D got and the attacks on JKR that made him think and presumably, prompted him to investigate (Seeing the light bit is my spin 🙂)

Wes Streeting: I should have spoken up sooner at Stonewall to defend women (telegraph.co.uk)

Wes Streeting: I should have spoken up sooner at Stonewall to defend women

Shadow health secretary concedes females shouldn’t have been ‘written off as bigots’ when they voiced concern over trans issues

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/26/wes-streeting-should-have-spoken-stonewall-women/

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 17:50

Ok thanks - interesting.

Signalbox · 15/07/2024 17:57

Don't forget Cass includes a trial for 1000 kids.

Presumably that'll be subject to ethics approval.

IwantToRetire · 15/07/2024 18:00

misscockerspaniel · 15/07/2024 17:36

He saw the light after seeing how JKR and Rosie Duffield were being treated - it made him think, and as we all know, once seen you cannot unsee.

That is a very generous statement.

You mean a man noticed that women were not being very well treated or respected?

Hmm
fromorbit · 15/07/2024 18:00

Floisme · 15/07/2024 16:23

Thanks all for your replies, I will think them over but for now, I'm just going to pick out one statement:
Really it depends what the bills say and how they are worded. We fight those battles when they come.

How do we fight them?

OK more writing to MPs, more supporting court cases, like we did before the election. But I just don't believe this will persuade anything like enough back benchers to defy their party whips, especially not new MPs. And even in the highly unlikely event that it does, the government can probably count on enough Lib Dem / SNP / Green support to get it through.

So what else? Or is that it?

Edited

How do we fight?

Parliamentary

Any bills will be tabled and debated in Commons with the possibility of amendments. We have a core of about 10 or more potential Labour rebels if the bills are bad enough. That is not enough to stop the bill, but is enough to cause a media storm if they rebel. The Tories will go all out because what do they have to lose. It is not the vote which they will lose, but the weaknesses they will expose.

You mention lib Dems/Greens etc. They are not certain to support the bills. Fact is they won't because the Bills will have some stuff to keep women happy. So they will be trying to amend them to make them more crazy. TRA Labour MPs will be tempted to support them. More delays and debate. More sunlight where Lib Dem MPs will have to argue for removing safeguards etc. They may back the bills in the end, but the process will be messy.

Then there are the four Gaza Independent MPs. They are only 4 votes, but I think they will not be keen on these bills as they might lead to Mosques being in trouble over conversion therapy, or saying women exist and they need to be dressed in religious garb etc. So that will lead to infighting with TRA leftists/progressives which could get messy real fast. Again more debate. Do Labour want to lose Muslims over gender stuff?

Then the bills go through the Lords multiple times also with possibility of amendment. Any weaknesses will be mercilessly exposed in the Lords. The Lords might very well vote them down. Which means more Commons votes.

It will not be a straightforward process. It will be heavily contested.

Media
Most newspapers will watch gender bills like a hawk. Multiple stories will be run.
Even if the BBC skimps on coverage the social media buzz will be huge will get a lot of interest. Above all if JKR tweets it is a news story. That will go on for months.

Protest
We have a LOT of women, even men, ready to act and protest in person and online. You think JKR's army is big now well I think it could get way way bigger if we can argue the existence of women is at stake. Lots of demos outside Parliament.

So you might say all this doesn't stop the bills being passed with that majority and Lib/Green support. Nope, it doesn't but everything we do raises the stakes and effort needed and the attention it consumes and the drama. That is important. That might mean the bills are weakened or amended due to popular pressure.

We follow the Women won't Weesht playbook. They had way less resources, less media attention than a Westminster debate would have. The bill also did not have to face the Lords. The bill was passed, but the SNP was critically wounded to do it.

Sturgeon went all in to get the most TRA friendly bill possible to pass. Remember SHE LOST. It all was wrecked in the end.

How much effort will Starmer put in? 80%, 60% 30%? The thing is how important is this to him and the cabinet? I don't think he cares that much.

Then we get to the next fightback

Legal
We have amazing lawyers. They can analyse the bills and point out errors. Say Labour pass something which makes no legal sense. We challenge that in the courts and keep on going. We have lawyers and we have the funds. The clever in Labour know this. So they will be keen to avoid judicial review by drafting a bill which isn't open to challenge. However to do that they need to concede a lot of ground to reality. TRAs will not like that at all. Which makes the Parliamentary debate more fraught.

Which leads to my final point.

Operation Let Them Speak

Our biggest allies will be the TRAs themselves. They will describe any bill which admits reality as genocide. They will undermine the more dangerous clever activists who cloak their aims in favour of the most crazy ones. They will make Fox Killer their legal expert. Right through this process Labour will be being described as monsters. Which links back into the question about effort.

How important is this stuff if you are going to be described as transphobic bigots whatever you do anyway?

Knowing if you screw it up a child rapist might be waving his GRC weeks after the bill is passed saying "thanks Starmer".

That you might have child psychologists being prosecuted for telling girls they are not boys.

Yes bills are likely to be passed, but we can challenge them and hope to amend them enough they are dead letters. Or make the bills so toxic through publicity they badly damage Labour electorally.

Plus ultimately a Tory/Reform government would tear them up in 5 or 10 years anyway if they anger people enough.

OldCrone · 15/07/2024 18:04

Signalbox · 15/07/2024 17:57

Don't forget Cass includes a trial for 1000 kids.

Presumably that'll be subject to ethics approval.

I can't see how they can get ethics approval for this.

Giving children permanently life-altering medication, with known negative side effects, on the basis of a completely unevidenced belief that some people have a gender identity which requires them to have their body altered to resemble that of the opposite sex.

Abhannmor · 15/07/2024 18:07

Theeyeballsinthesky · 14/07/2024 12:18

streeting has been excellent on this but I am yet to be convinced that Philipson & Dodds will be as strong as Streeting. We shall see!

Streeting has done a bit of a volte face on this hasn't he? Wasn't he part of a WhatsApp group whose purpose was to root out GC people in the Labour Party. A welcome convert if so. But he might flip again if it should become expedient.

duc748 · 15/07/2024 18:14

I don't think WS will back-track. He's an ambitious man, and I think he realises that hanging your hat on the TRA express-train is not a smart and viable long-term option.

Mollyollydolly · 15/07/2024 18:14

Only a small point but it bloody enrages me. Everywhere people are talking about 'young people' they are CHILDREN. This activist language is chosen deliberately to obfuscate what we are actually talking about. They are CHILDREN who need and require safeguarding.

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:14

lol

Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response
Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response
Mollyollydolly · 15/07/2024 18:16

Wes has always been very good mates with Jess Phillips too, so I'm sure they'll have had many conversations behind the scenes. I'm really pleased he's come over to the dark side, he's a very effective communicator - better than Starmer or any of them tbh.
And some of the posts about him yesterday were shocking, I saw people saying his mother should have aborted him, calling him a murderer, a cunt etc etc. It's not exactly going to win him over.

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:20

I'm really pleased he's come over to the dark side*

*The dark side that identifies as the less heat more light side.

fromorbit · 15/07/2024 18:21

Nandy is trending on X.

Some of it is about her going to see the football final, others are TRAs denouncing her, and others congratulating her on seeing sense.

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:24

JKR RT'd the tweet upthread.

lcakethereforeIam · 15/07/2024 18:25

Regarding transed children, some of the loudest voices and certainly the most emotive will be the children themselves. Isn't one of the parties to the foxphobes latest gift a dysphoric child? I think of them as I do the children caught up in county lines or the various grooming scandals such as Rochdale. In those instances the children sometimes fought the people trying to keep them safe; absconding, hiding phones, etc. Because they are children, they believe the lies, they have their heads turned by the attention or they were terrified of the dire consequences of not following their abuser's instructions. To me the parallels are uncanny.

JM and his ilk are not children. Even if I could find the words to express my disgust I doubt MN could let the post stand.

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:29

As an aside; That thing that doesn't happen in toilets

x.com/mailonline/status/1812883783823106326?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response
SquirrelSoShiny · 15/07/2024 18:30

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:14

lol

That made me cackle like the 'witch in need of a stake' that I must be

SquirrelSoShiny · 15/07/2024 18:33

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:29

As an aside; That thing that doesn't happen in toilets

x.com/mailonline/status/1812883783823106326?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

I don't understand this reporting. Is it a woman carrying out a sexual assault or a 'woman' (the 'modern' kind with a penis aka man)?

Abhannmor · 15/07/2024 18:33

OldCrone · 15/07/2024 11:48

Count down to Nandy becoming a big target for TRA abuse begins now sorry to say.

Sadly, she's probably about to find out exactly how toxic the 'debate' is from the TRA side.

I'm not a bit sad tbh. She was very keen to boot gc feminists from the party. Also said Scottish nationalists should be dealt with as Spain handled Catalan protestors. Quite the little fascist.

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 18:40

@SquirrelSoShiny the article compares the samples given from both with a similar case where the perpetrator is a male.

Under uk law only a male can rape.

RedToothBrush · 15/07/2024 18:56

Fascinating report by More in Common and UCL on the General Election result:

https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/change-pending/

That Labour's victory came despite winning just over a third of the vote reinforces the fact that many voters wanted to remove the Conservatives from power but remained unsure about the alternative. Labour now faces the challenge of both understanding and delivering the change the country wants, to hold together and deepen their broad but likely fragile coalition.

The public’s key test for the success or failure of Labour’s delivery will be NHS waiting lists - more than half the public see mismanagement of the NHS as the Conservative’s biggest mistake since 2019, and policies on the NHS was also the top reason given by 2024 Labour voters for supporting the Party.

In fact, 63 per cent of the public say that the NHS will be the benchmark against which measure Labour’s success or failure - higher than any other delivery test.

Wes Streeting is the key to Labour's next election success or failure.

Delivery of tangible improvements to people's lives is crucial to meeting voters’ demands for change, but it must be done in a way that demonstrates respect for ordinary people and their concerns. Voters' expectations for change go beyond delivery. An overwhelming 96 per cent of voters say that respect for ordinary people is an important quality for a politician - the highest of any attribute tested, something relayed in focus group conversation after focus group conversation.

Take notes here. This is actually really really relevant to the whole ongoing debate over Women's Rights.

Labour's support now spans a much broader and less ideologically cohesive coalition than in 2019. Labour won its 174 seat majority on just a third of the popular vote - by shifting from a coalition of ideology to one of pragmatism. Voters were more likely to say they backed the party at this election they saw as the most competent, rather than whose policy’s they preferred.

The public do not want ideologically driven politicians. The public are saying it loud and clear. It is the SINGLE BIGGEST THING that the public agree on. This is important when we are taking about evidence lead policy decision making.

In 2019, Labour’s support ranged between 67 per cent with the most progressive segment of the population to just 9 per cent with the most conservative. Today that gap of 56 points has narrowed to just 27, with nearly a quarter of Backbone Conservatives supporting Labour. As a result, only about a third of Labour voters are from the more left leaning "Progressive Activist" or "Civic Pragmatist" segments, down from over half in 2019.

Labour’s support fell around 17 points from 2019 among Progressive Activists - the most left leaning segment of the population but rose 15 points with the more Cameronite “Established Liberal” segment of the population powering their gains in the Blue Wall in the south of England. Labour’s vote share was also 11 points higher than in 2019 among the more socially Conservative “Loyal National” vote group, helping them to reverse Boris Johnson’s gains in the Red Wall and win back seats in the north and midlands of England.

The centrists decided the Election. Labour's left are not nearly as important going forward as they were.

Labour’s coalition is also one of the ‘head’ rather than the ‘heart’. Nearly a quarter of those who voted Labour (23 per cent) voted for Labour for the first time. Many votes were strategic - just under three in ten (28 per cent) of 2024 Labour voters give the top reason for their vote as stopping another party from winning. Labour’s support is a coalition of valence not a coalition of ideology. Keir Starmer now faces the challenge of balancing the differing expectations and priorities of these different constituent groups.

This is noteworthy. As is the following.

The Conservative vote share collapsed to historic lows, largely due to perceptions of incompetence and chaos in government rather than ideological shifts. Conservative support is now highly concentrated in the ‘Backbone Conservative’ segment, with both more Cameronite Established Liberals deserting the party and more socially conservative Loyal Nationals switching back from their 2019 vote, costing the Conservatives seats in both the Blue and Red Walls.

There's more centrist votes there to be won if Labour manage to be competent from the Conservatives.

And

Of those who opted out on election day, 38 per cent had voted in the 2019 election. While many non-voters said they would have voted Labour, the picture is somewhat more complicated than simply left-wing abstentionism alone.

Just four percent of non-voters stayed at home because they were sure that the party they supported was going to win. Complacency is not a sufficient reason for the significant drop in turnout. Overall, 2019 Conservative voters made up a greater proportion of 2024 non-voters than 2019 Labour voters. Their decision to abstain was active rather than passive, unable to back another party but wanting to show their disapproval for the Conservatives’ record.

For 77 per cent of the 2019 Conservatives voters who abstained, this was the first time ever that they did not vote. This group exemplifies Conservatives who have lost faith in the Government they elected in 2019. The top reason 2019 Conservatives give for not voting is that they don’t trust any politicians and the main barriers they cite to voting Conservative centre around perceptions of the party as out-of-touch, corrupt and incompetent. This depressed turnout exaggerated the Conservatives’ defeat - if the Conservatives had been able to mobilise these 2019 Conservatives in 2024 it could have tipped the scales in their favour in 33 seats without having to win back a single voter who switched to another party.

And from none voters.

Take heart my friends... There are many things here that BOTH the Labour Party and the Conservatives will be taking seriously and are highly relevant to us. The full report does not even mention women's rights but I don't think it actually needs to though tbh. The issue sits inside the point of incompetence and ideologically driven policy which Labour will be keen to move away from if they take this even half as seriously as they should. Its a rejection of 'wokeism' in many respects.

Change Pending - The path to the 2024 General Election and beyond

Over 60 focus groups and polling of over 10,000 people shows us why people voted the way they did at the General Election, and what comes next.

https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/change-pending

Signalbox · 15/07/2024 19:10

fromorbit · 15/07/2024 18:21

Nandy is trending on X.

Some of it is about her going to see the football final, others are TRAs denouncing her, and others congratulating her on seeing sense.

Oh she’s going to get it in the neck isn’t she? Perhaps it’ll finally dawn on her that it’s not a “both sides” situation.

Abhannmor · 15/07/2024 19:27

Oh don't worry @Signalbox . She has a hard neck like a jockeys bollocks. So does Streeting. David Brent with an empathy bypass. And without the jokes. They've got this I'd say

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/07/2024 19:28

WarriorN · 15/07/2024 17:13

Kim Johnson, Labour Liverpool mp

The proposed ban on puberty blockers for young trans people is very concerning.
Labour's manifesto promised to "remove indignities for trans people who deserve recognition & acceptance" -this entails ending the ban on puberty blockers.* I will always stand with trans youth.*

x.com/kimjohnsonmp/status/1812865611103441137?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

She used to be my MP, until a recent boundary change. She's beyond redemption. I'm waiting to see how much she wants to keep her job - given she opposes Starmer's Labour on just about everything.

As with most others who stridently support the concept of 'trans' and 'trans children' I'm imagning she must have some very personal investment.

Swipe left for the next trending thread