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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Single sex spaces aren’t just about safety – they are about community

67 replies

IwantToRetire · 13/07/2024 01:31

The origins of this debate are difficult to trace, but they start somewhere around the late 2010s following the government’s public consultation into reforming the Gender Recognition Act of 2004. Led by then equalities minister, Penny Mordaunt, the consultation sought to understand public sentiment around simplifying the process to allow individuals to legally change their gender. ‘Trans women are women and trans men are men,’ Mordaunt famously told parliament during a debate on the topic in 2018.

Since then, much of the conversation has centred on the ideological divisions between trans-rights campaigners who want access to single-sex spaces (including women’s toilets, women’s sports, and women-only boards and panels), and women’s rights activists who want to protect them. For the latter group, the issue of protecting women from violence – male violence in particular – has been paramount.

These places should not be used solely as hideaways from the world, in which victimised women take shelter, but rather as places to cultivate and perpetuate female solidarity, camaraderie, and joy.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-will-labour-do-about-women-only-spaces

Please note! these are just a few paragraphs I have picked out. And may not be what others would take from the whole article.

Text is also available at https://archive.ph/hBbPz

What will Labour do about women-only spaces?

Labour’s plan for government is becoming clear. Yet one policy issue remains conspicuously uncertain: the issue of women-only spaces

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-will-labour-do-about-women-only-spaces

OP posts:
Catsmere · 14/07/2024 03:37

DuesToTheDirt · 13/07/2024 11:14

coming to her rescue with a spare sanitary pad.

Oh not this one again. I'm late 50s and have never, ever, given or taken sanitary protection from some randomer, or even a friend, in the ladies.

Early sixties, ditto. I carried enough for myself, not for others, and only when I had my period or was close to it.

Catsmere · 14/07/2024 03:42

The dunny is not somewhere I go looking for joy. That sounds like the sort of thing a fetishist man would say, the type who gets a euphoria boner from crossdressing and forcing his presence on women.

I'm also rolling my eyes at the idea of the cruel harsh world these men have to endure. Bollocks they do. They're the safest and most privileged demographic out there.

LilyBartsHatShop · 14/07/2024 04:46

Floisme · 13/07/2024 14:21

Apologies if I sounded negative. I don't think the article is all bad.

The part I probably found most exasperating was the suggestion of third spaces as if it were a viable solution that no-one had thought of before. I'm afraid it cemented my initial view that most FWR posters know more about this issue than the writer does.

But hey, maybe I should be more tolerant - we were all new to this once.

Oh, that makes sense.
I assumed she was being completely cynical and knows no TRA actually wants trans-women only spaces alongside women only spaces. But wants to force them to explain why.
But I may be completely misreading her.

LilyBartsHatShop · 14/07/2024 05:00

Oh wow, props to her writing this from Melbourne Uni!
Never been tempted to get in touch with an academic before to give them moral support but I might try.
Toilets in Islamic countries with dress codes are very different spaces to functional public amenities in western countries. Lots of them are still like the ladies' toilets used to be in deparment stores, with a small lounge with comfortable chairs to sit in. And that would be the place to compliment someone's dress because you won't have seen it before you all go in and take off your abaya for a bit.
TRAs are 21st century imperialists so good for her trying to make this a more multicultural conversation.

(Also I was asked several times in high school for menstrual products from girls who I know would never have been able to ask with boys around - never since).

renomeno · 14/07/2024 05:44

@Keeptoiletssafe Brilliant piece, thank you for sharing!

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 14/07/2024 05:53

yvcdrjb · 13/07/2024 11:34

Me neither. We don't have wet t shirt competitions or pillow fights in there either.

Really?? I have always had an irregular cycle and have often been rescued by ladies in the toilets! Not all, but certainly some, cliches have roots in truth

and it’s a good reminder of the whole “it didn’t happen to me…..doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to them” lesson

there isn’t a singular “woman’s” experience

EdenPalmersTerfAuntie · 14/07/2024 06:33

I'd like to apologise to anyone I've offended by offering to share my garlic peeling tips in the ladies. It won't happen again.

ApocalipstickNow · 14/07/2024 07:34

It’s ok eden you just wanted to peel.

TheaBrandt · 14/07/2024 07:54

I raise an eyebrow as bustling yourself into a space where some of the other people already properly using the space have clearly said they don’t want you is such utterly male type behaviour! I cannot imagine any woman I have ever known doing this.

Catsmere · 14/07/2024 08:02

ApocalipstickNow · 14/07/2024 07:34

It’s ok eden you just wanted to peel.

😆😆😆

UpThePankhurst · 14/07/2024 09:56

EdenPalmersTerfAuntie · 14/07/2024 06:33

I'd like to apologise to anyone I've offended by offering to share my garlic peeling tips in the ladies. It won't happen again.

Eden, if you wish to be your authentic self in the ladies and explain garlic to anyone in there, then I will gladly support you in this. #bekindtogarlicnerds

UpThePankhurst · 14/07/2024 09:58

TheaBrandt · 14/07/2024 07:54

I raise an eyebrow as bustling yourself into a space where some of the other people already properly using the space have clearly said they don’t want you is such utterly male type behaviour! I cannot imagine any woman I have ever known doing this.

In very much the same way women don't hang off ladders and scaffolding going "phwoar! show us your tits darling!" and then laughing if the person they are harassing/ tacitly sexually assaulting reacts and adding "You're beautiful when you're angry darling!"

Women's reactions seem to be a very key part of the pleasure for men in using the women in women's spaces.

Keeptoiletssafe · 14/07/2024 11:32

IwantToRetire · 14/07/2024 00:33

I think the author is American which maybe relevant because traditionally toilets/restrooms over there are different.

Originally from Bangalore, India, and born and raised in Dubai, she has spent the last decade working and living in Melbourne, Australia, where she earned a degree in Psychology and Art History from the University of Melbourne

I only looked at her LinkedIn and saw a video from a New York university (Columbia) where she sounds American. The ‘community’ ‘inclusive’ roots are American so I did think that it may be relevant as it does seem a stranger concept over here and the references in the uk toilet legislation commissioned document I talked about were all American.

I didn’t realise the hyperlink from the influential Stalled video popped up out of all of my hyperlinks. It’s interesting to see how these American ideas evolved. In it the director talks to Harvard university students about a ‘social justice issue that could be addressed through design innovation’. He says they designed the restroom areas through the ‘queer lens’ of trans inclusivity. If you look at examples, it’s private cubicles off huge open spaces, with communal sinks etc. I think there are some nice ideas like sinks of different heights (which I have seen before here). But even if they were safe, it is impossible to transfer that design to every U.K. situation. If their designs had not been completely enclosed cubicles there would be nothing to take issue with, as they would not have been used as the source of evidence for enclosed designs in our legislation. I doubt they would think one element of their designs would be used in this way either.

These designs are not safe for anyone at crucial moments of vulnerability. They have not been risked assessed. And to use them as a justification for a crucial design element in toilet legislation here, without any discussion, will have tragic consequences.

My focus obviously is safety. Think of the following situations. The first is one of the reasons I campaign for safe toilets.

I was in a nightclub. My friends and I went to the ladies toilets and saw a blue hand, sticking out of a cubicle door gap, on the floor. So we hoisted one of us over the top of door to get into the cubicle, pulled the body away so we could open the door, dragged her out, scooped the sick out her mouth, shook her on her side, she let out a weird noise and started breathing again properly. Once the paramedics arrived we went back clubbing.

Contrast that situation in a mixed sex area with totally enclosed toilets, as they will have to be if they are mixed sex, from October in the UK. No door gaps are specified even in the single sex designs (though it is not specifically stated that single sex must be enclosed). The toilets can all now be opened outwards from the outside (as per legislation). So an improvement of going over the top and having to move the body to open the door. She wasn’t making any noise but, in legislation, the new cubicles have ‘acoustic properties’ so even less of a chance of hearing her if she was trying to cry for help. But the crucial difference is we never would have seen her on the floor. We would have ignored the closed door. She would have been found by the hours later after the nightclub shut.

Now a different scenario of someone hiding in one cubicle and going into another to assault someone. Because there are lots of examples that that is happening now. Contrast the 2 designs from the point of view of what the victim could see and any potential witnesses/ rescuers could see. And how both the designs prevent an assault in the first place (clue: criminals don’t like being seen).

Safety should always override ‘community’ and even total privacy. And every design element should be assessed before legislation.

quantumbutterfly · 14/07/2024 11:57

Keeptoiletssafe · 14/07/2024 11:32

I only looked at her LinkedIn and saw a video from a New York university (Columbia) where she sounds American. The ‘community’ ‘inclusive’ roots are American so I did think that it may be relevant as it does seem a stranger concept over here and the references in the uk toilet legislation commissioned document I talked about were all American.

I didn’t realise the hyperlink from the influential Stalled video popped up out of all of my hyperlinks. It’s interesting to see how these American ideas evolved. In it the director talks to Harvard university students about a ‘social justice issue that could be addressed through design innovation’. He says they designed the restroom areas through the ‘queer lens’ of trans inclusivity. If you look at examples, it’s private cubicles off huge open spaces, with communal sinks etc. I think there are some nice ideas like sinks of different heights (which I have seen before here). But even if they were safe, it is impossible to transfer that design to every U.K. situation. If their designs had not been completely enclosed cubicles there would be nothing to take issue with, as they would not have been used as the source of evidence for enclosed designs in our legislation. I doubt they would think one element of their designs would be used in this way either.

These designs are not safe for anyone at crucial moments of vulnerability. They have not been risked assessed. And to use them as a justification for a crucial design element in toilet legislation here, without any discussion, will have tragic consequences.

My focus obviously is safety. Think of the following situations. The first is one of the reasons I campaign for safe toilets.

I was in a nightclub. My friends and I went to the ladies toilets and saw a blue hand, sticking out of a cubicle door gap, on the floor. So we hoisted one of us over the top of door to get into the cubicle, pulled the body away so we could open the door, dragged her out, scooped the sick out her mouth, shook her on her side, she let out a weird noise and started breathing again properly. Once the paramedics arrived we went back clubbing.

Contrast that situation in a mixed sex area with totally enclosed toilets, as they will have to be if they are mixed sex, from October in the UK. No door gaps are specified even in the single sex designs (though it is not specifically stated that single sex must be enclosed). The toilets can all now be opened outwards from the outside (as per legislation). So an improvement of going over the top and having to move the body to open the door. She wasn’t making any noise but, in legislation, the new cubicles have ‘acoustic properties’ so even less of a chance of hearing her if she was trying to cry for help. But the crucial difference is we never would have seen her on the floor. We would have ignored the closed door. She would have been found by the hours later after the nightclub shut.

Now a different scenario of someone hiding in one cubicle and going into another to assault someone. Because there are lots of examples that that is happening now. Contrast the 2 designs from the point of view of what the victim could see and any potential witnesses/ rescuers could see. And how both the designs prevent an assault in the first place (clue: criminals don’t like being seen).

Safety should always override ‘community’ and even total privacy. And every design element should be assessed before legislation.

Completely agree with you about safety and am very grateful for you highlighting this issue.

I remember a craze for 'twobicles', do they still exist?

UtopiaPlanitia · 14/07/2024 14:47

@Keeptoiletssafe Thank you for posting the detailed and interesting information that you have on various threads. I had not considered some of these points you raise until I read your posts and I’m very glad to have had the chance to realise that there are many other safety aspects relating to health that are important and currently being ignored in favour of ideology.

IwantToRetire · 14/07/2024 19:36

Oh wow, props to her writing this from Melbourne Uni!

I hadn't thought of that aspect.

I wonder how much that influences what she feels she can say.

Sad
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