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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault

1000 replies

WandsOut · 04/07/2024 18:06

www.yahoo.com/entertainment/sandman-writer-neil-gaiman-denies-142813982.html

Story still unfolding in the news

OP posts:
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75
MrsToddsShortcut · 29/07/2024 15:08

I believe it is actually written into the 2003 Sexual Offences Act that you can't consent to sex if you are unconscious or asleep. Will check it later (am just off out)

YellowAsteroid · 29/07/2024 17:53

UtopiaPlanitia · 29/07/2024 00:41

@notathenabutcassandra I'm genuinely amazed that Gaiman is not being investigated by journalists or raked over the coals for his behaviour by the great and good. What happened to journalistic integrity and ethics? What happened to taking victims seriously and properly investigating their claims?

Because ....

Well, he's a man, isn't he? And he has to have what he wants. Fucker.

notathenabutcassandra · 29/07/2024 18:23

And, of course...

Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault
notathenabutcassandra · 29/07/2024 20:21

This is a pretty useful overview of the new podcast: www.reddit.com/r/neilgaiman/s/6qpVs73jdt

taylorswift1989 · 29/07/2024 20:46

Holy shit. Read NG's description of himself as the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood. He thinks that without the wolf, the girl is "just another girl." Grim.

taylorswift1989 · 29/07/2024 20:56

Here's the relevant part of the comment from that thread
:“POSTED BY NEIL GAIMAN AT 11:02 PMToday I had my photo taken, for an American Library Association Series of author photo posters. (The poster won’t be out for months. You’ll need to get something else in the meantime, like their Sherman Alexie poster. Or their Orlando Bloom READ poster. Or their P. Craig Russell Sandman poster.) The photographer explained that she was going to do a straightforward photo (which she took), and that later she wants take some more imaginative ones — me looming from the darkness, me with paint or ink dripping from my hand, that kind of thing. And then she mentioned that she wanted to also take a photo of me as the mythological or literary character of my choice, and wondered who I’d like to be.“Red Riding Hood’s Wolf,” I said, because I went perfectly blank, and that was the first thing that popped into my completely blank head. So I’m going to be Red Riding Hood’s Wolf in a photo, although this may not be obvious to anyone except the photographer and me.Afterwards, she asked why...I honestly didn’t know, so I started writing, to try and figure it out.I think part of the idea of Red Riding Hood’s Wolf (why her wolf? Possibly because I was given a Ladybird book containing the story of Little Red Riding Hood, when I was an infant, and that was the first time I’d encountered the image of a wolf standing on his hind legs. He wore a jacket, at least in memory he did, in the paintings, and was talking comfortably to Red Riding Hood, who was chubby and pretty, and much older than I was, and I could absolutely understand what he saw in her, and for me Sondheim’s song “Hello Little Girl” was already beginning to come into existence, as text not subtext: obviously, this meeting was to be the start of a beautiful friendship, one that would last — girl and wolf — forever). The wolf in the story represents an awful lot of stuff — the danger and truth of stories, for a start, and the way they change; he symbolises — not predation, for some reason — but transformation: the meeting in the wild wood that changes everything forever. Angela Carter’s statement that “some men are hairy on the inside” comes to mind: as an image, in my head, it’s the wolf’s shadow that has ears and a tail, while the man in wolf form stands in his forest (and cities are forests too) and waits for the girl in the red cloak , picking flowers, to come along, or, hungrily, watches her leave...There’s a woodcutter, and an axe, but at the start of the story, the wolf is waiting again, and he’s just fine.When I was a boy, when I grew up I wanted to be a wolf. I never wanted to be a wolfman. I didn’t really want to be a werewolf, except for a few years in my early teens. I wanted to be a wolf, in a forest or in the world.Later, as an adult, I remember encountering the story of Red Riding Hood in its original form, a French version that predated the cleaned-up ways of telling the tale I’d already encountered, and the bleak sexuality of the story came through: when she encounters the wolf in her grandmother’s bed, he eats and drinks her grandmother with her, then tells her to take off all her clothes and throw them on the fire — she wouldn’t be needing them any more, — and, finally, she joins him in the bed naked. And then, with no more ado, he eats her. And there the story stops, sometimes with a direct moral — not to talk to strangers — and sometimes without it. The story disturbed me, and I put it into Sandman, in the Serial Killers’ Convention story, where it represents a number of things at once, and is also itself.The wolf defines Red Riding Hood. He makes the story happen. Without him, she’d just be another girl on her way to her grandmother’s house. And she’d leave her goodies behind, and come home, and no-one would ever have heard of her. But he’s not just her wolf: he’s all the wolves on the edge of the world, all the wolves in all the stories, all the wolves in all the dreams of wolves; flashing green eyes in the darkness, dangerously honest about what he wants: food, company, an appetite.And if I could be any literary figure, I think, today, I’d be strangely happy to be him.”

NeverDropYourMooncup · 29/07/2024 21:12

Ugh. Women and girls are not defined, their lives are not given meaning, by the men that abuse, assault, rape and murder them.

They do not need a man to make their existence notable or worthwhile. And not one of the women and girls that have encountered Gaiman needed his abuse to make them of significance or to give them a learning experience akin to the fairy tale. He's just another predator identifying with the predator. He feels represented in this - the bit he's making a point of not saying in the interview;

And that it isn’t a strange matter,
If the Wolf chooses to eat them.
I say the Wolf, because not all Wolves
are of the same sort;
Some are good-natured,
Without rancor, bark, or bite,
Who secretly, complacent and sweet,
Follow young maidens into houses,
into back alleys;
But alas! who doesn’t know that these gentle wolves,
Out of all the other wolves, are the most dangerous

Iamiams · 29/07/2024 21:56

Well the lawyers can’t retract his woof words from 20 years ago - they have spread too far and been copied and pasted too many times.

If people study his books in future, they will be looking at them with the knowledge of the accusations and his admissions too. So all his work is tainted now.

AllTipAndNoIceberg · 30/07/2024 00:14

Aside from being a predatory creep, he’s just so overrated

hihelenhi · 30/07/2024 06:56

I'm glad this second podcast has come out too and it can't be "debunked" on the spurious grounds that it's "terf/Boris Johnson's sister" (whom of course BJ has ownership of, cannot possibly have a mind or opinion of her own and therefore is evil by association). Whichever side of the "gender debate" one is on should not make a difference, and I hope it will start becoming clear that this is about a man who preys on and grooms and manipulates vulnerable young women and misuses his power constantly. Another "in plain sighter". I do hope other women are going to start speaking out, there must be a hell of a lot of them, given he's clearly been at this for decades.

LilyBartsHatShop · 30/07/2024 07:02

"...dangerously honest about what he wants: food, company, an appetite."
Oh gosh that's a fascinating sentence.
The wolf wants an appetite? That doesn't even make sense.
There's nothing honest about it at all. He's weirdly coy about sexual desire (referring to it indirectly as "an appetite") because he's all about plausible deniablity. I'm the perverted one because I'm seeing sexual desire in what he says.
I think he's really clever and I can see why he's got away with his hideous abuses for so long.
I hope noone who's been harmed by him feels stupid, or like they should have seen him coming.
Gaimen, and many others like him, are so careful, so studied, it's a fine art for them, they put more energy into abusing and getting away with it than anything else in life.
I hope he's taken down in flames, I really really do. I cry with every number @notathenabutcassandra posts because it might not happen but, goddess, a woman can hope.

CorruptedCauldron · 30/07/2024 08:02

As Angela Carter said: “The worst wolves are hairy on the inside.”

Gaiman has said quite openly that he identifies with a devious but charming predatory wolf (who likes to eat young girls and their grandmothers).

It’s an interesting contrast to an article he did in the Guardian where he basically expressed gratitude for still being able to have any kind of sex at 60-plus. As if he’s just some humble nerdy guy, nice and unassuming, and really thankful to get laid. “Oh my gosh, I can still do this thing.”

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/oct/21/neil-gaiman-interview

DeanElderberry · 30/07/2024 08:04

In most of the versions of the story, Red Riding Hood 'defines' the wolf - it is cut open, she survives, ensures the wolf's stupidity and greed leads to its death.

All the other wolves, the ones that live with their packs, have a normal and contented existence we don't know anything about unless we go snooping on them with spy cameras. Happy wolf families. We know that psycho predator wolf is aberrant, not representative of its kind, an animal with something wrong with it, and that its destruction is good not just for Red Riding Hood and her grandmother and human society, but also for the rest of the wolves.

Make your own decisions about what you want to do with a man who gleefully identifies with the aberrant predator. I'll start by not reading his books.

TheDarkPinesOfYourMind · 30/07/2024 09:08

I've listened to the podcast with "Claire". It includes a long recording she made in a therapy session, where she tells in detail what happened with Gaiman. Heartbreaking. What comes through clearly is how predatory, creepy, and manipulative he is. Within ten minutes of meeting her at a book signing, he had taken her off somewhere more private and kissed her under the pretense of demonstrating how he'd kissed his wife when they got married. Over and over, Claire says something like, "I didn't want to, but I did it anyway, because he was Neil Gaiman."

He knew exactly what he was doing and the impact that his fame has on starry-eyed young fans.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/07/2024 09:16

AllTipAndNoIceberg · 30/07/2024 00:14

Aside from being a predatory creep, he’s just so overrated

he is isn't he? I read American Gods because of all the fuss, but I never read anything else. and my house is full of every book by e.g. John Le Carre, Robin Hobb, Lord TP etc. I just couldn't be arsed to read any more NG. I get that some people love his books though - takes all sorts

RoystonVaseyRoyalty · 30/07/2024 10:10

I've always loathed his writing. Faux naif and not up to the knees of a gothic mind like Angela Carter or a fantasy world creator like Diana Wynne Jones.

He's very online and very savvy about internet culture though, which is why he's saying nowt. The best way to make a scandal go away is to go very very quiet.

I hope he won't be allowed to come back and carry on as usual, as he won't be able to stay away from the lure of internet attention long.

DeanElderberry · 30/07/2024 10:18

I think the only one of his books I got all the way through was Coraline - not a patch on Lewis Carroll if you want a book about a resourceful young girl in a strange and obscurely menacing world. I've also heard at least one, probably more things by Gaiman on BBC radio. So liberating to not have to bother any more - the hype used to make me feel vaguely inadequate since I didn't 'get' it.

MrsWhattery · 30/07/2024 13:00

He has said Angela Carter was an influence on him I think – but he doesn't have the deep and visceral understanding of folklore (or wolves) in the same way at all. That's one reason Coraline annoyed me so much. The folktale blew my mind and I wanted to see what he did with it. Nothing much! There's no depth of understanding about its power, it's just a shallow "inspiration".

taylorswift1989 · 30/07/2024 13:17

I loved Coraline. I actually don't think he's a bad writer. I mean, he's obviously not - he can obviously tell a story that engages and entertains millions of people. I appreciate that not everyone is going to find his writing to their taste, but I also find the comments about how 'he's a shit writer, I never liked him anyway' to be weirdly, vaguely, victim-blaming. Like his fans were idiots for being into him, or somehow being a 'terrible' writer should have been a clue that he's a predator.

The fact is that people like NG have power, status, and access to their victims precisely because they are good at what they do. They leverage their talent and skill in order to exploit people, and to provide themselves with 'cover' from other powerful individuals.

I'm just listening to Claire's story now. It's so heartbreaking. Like a pp said, I'm glad this has come from a more 'woke' source as it shuts up those people who refuse to listen to a 'terf'/someone's sister.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2024 13:44

It’s an interesting contrast to an article he did in the Guardian where he basically expressed gratitude for still being able to have any kind of sex at 60-plus. As if he’s just some humble nerdy guy, nice and unassuming, and really thankful to get laid. “Oh my gosh, I can still do this thing.”

And the Guardian felt it was a good quote to hook readers in:

Neil Gaiman: ‘In your 60s, any sex is good sex. It’s like: Oh my gosh, I can still do this thing’

DeanElderberry · 30/07/2024 13:47

I don't think that NG fans are idiots, but I do think that it is possible for a female reader to think there is something a bit sus and also inaccessible about some male writers that turns out to be because they don't treat their female characters as fully human in the way they do their male characters. See my comments on William Mayne (and the way the literary world is choosing to revere his legacy) upthread.

I also think it shows more. or maybe more insidiously, with self-consciously 'literary' writers - I'd include both Gaiman and Mayne in that - than in genre or popular writers who may be more sexist on an obvious level.

taylorswift1989 · 30/07/2024 14:07

I do think that it is possible for a female reader to think there is something a bit sus and also inaccessible about some male writers that turns out to be because they don't treat their female characters as fully human in the way they do their male characters.

Hmm, that maybe applies to NG. But it also applies to possibly the majority of male writers and you have to hope that they're not ALL sexual predators.

I think that in hindsight maybe it's easy to find examples in his writing that betray his predatory nature. But hindsight is 20/20, as they say. I don't like the idea of bringing a level of literary snobbery into the equation. A lot of women love NG's writing, his characters and worlds, and it's not their fault that they didn't know he was a serial abuser of his fans. Like, if only they had read more widely and studied literary criticism, they would have been able to see through his mask? Nah.

NG is a good writer and JKR is also a good writer. Neither of them are particularly brilliant writers, in my opinion, but for both people, I feel it is weird to accuse them of being bad at writing because of things they've done/said that are generally unrelated to their writing. The JKR haters are obviously full of shit, and I don't think we need to borrow any of their tactics to discredit NG. His actions are disgusting without needing to pour shade onto people for having liked his books or TV shows.

Come to think of it, maybe that's partly why there's been silence from many of his fans - the idea that if you are going to dislike someone's behaviour, you have to completely deny their talent or any contribution they've made to the world. They aren't ready to give NG the JKR treatment, so now they don't know what to do. Just a thought.

MrsWhattery · 30/07/2024 14:09

'he's a shit writer, I never liked him anyway'

I know, I agree with you in principle - that dissing someone's work when they do something bad or annoying etc is fatuous. But as I think I said v early in the thread, I actually did always feel like that about him. Coraline REALLY annoyed me and that was way before any of this. I think because the folktale it's based on is one of the most powerful things I've ever read and yet Coraline didn't seem to resonate with it. Interested to hear why you liked it though.

DeanElderberry · 30/07/2024 14:16

Yes, I'm not attempting to speak for anyone else. I'm saying that I found two specific writers who were heavily endorsed by the book-pushers as 'good' to be very inaccessible, in a way that suddenly made sense when I learned that they were abusers.

It's a bit like always having found Rolf Harris, Jimmy Savile, Father Michael Cleary, deeply creepy and wondering why anyone was surprised about them. My view is that entertainers (and writers of fiction are entertainers, as are popular clergy, politicians, sportspeople etc) show me who they are, and if believing them makes me admire/like them, and their product less, tough.

taylorswift1989 · 30/07/2024 14:18

Yes, your powers of perception are wonderfully superior.

What a shame other women and children are so easily taken in.

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