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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An alarming rise in #TradWife and #PrincessTreatment aspirations?

60 replies

LongFacedRat · 02/07/2024 13:53

I'm shocked in the number of young women who are promoting TradWife, Princess Treatment, Soft Life etc aspirations on social media.

To me it feels like the sister of Incel-ideology. A woman's sole aspiration is to find a "masucline" provider and take the "divine feminine" role of helper etc.

It comes in lots of different flavours of varying extremes. I think because I watched a few videos I keep being shown more and more, and the comments are really sad too.

Has anyone noticed this? Am I being OTT? It seems very pervasive, ranging from not wanting to pay for things when dating, to aspiring to be a stay at home wife who cooks from scratch and presents the husband's meal like a restaurant.

I can share some examples, but I also don't want to shame specific content creators. You can search the terms above in social media for examples (i think a bunch of "soft life" things are more on the jokey side).

When I was growing up I wanted to be a doctor and make enough money to support myself and help my parents. Now young women just aspire to marry a "provider" who "takes care of me". Obviously our mothers and grandmothers fought against this because of the vulnerability it brings. It's a shame to see women desperate to go back to the 1950s

OP posts:
Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 18:26

Oh yes, I hear you.
I believe there are 2 narratives, the princess and the one where, to be validated, you have to go out to work.
Tbh, I'm not conscious of the princess one at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just I never come across it.
I can see that it is problematic.
But, as someone who was a SAHM, I am sick to the back teeth of there being an assumption that my choice was a 2nd class one.
And I believe that there wouldn't be so many mental health with adolescents if there were more sahm or sahd.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 03/07/2024 18:28

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 02/07/2024 15:23

Social media has a lot to answer for. It's currently a popular female influencer niche particularly in semi-religious circles and western audiences.

Like any social media portrayal it's papering over the cracks and presenting an aspirational lifestyle. The women are being coy in that either their husband works a lucrative job (sometimes something very 'modern' like an IT contractor) to foot the bill of the family's supposedly 'simple, traditional' lifestyle. Or else one salary doesn't provide all that well and their social media influencing or MLM income is topping up the coffers. Sometimes they're far out-earning their husband's income. Apparently neither of these count as women working and are swept under the rug 🙄

Some of the husbands actually seem rather inept and lazy, not the 'traditional, masculine providers' they're supposed to portray. Quite a lot abandon their jobs when it's clear the wife is the main breadwinner particularly if their influencer income is good to high. Some try to cuckoo their way into 'leading' their wife's brand (which she developed, runs, is the 'star' of and attracts a predominantly female audience). I'm aware of more then a few religious fundamentalist accounts where the influencer income isn't there yet and the husband still refuses to work. The women are being abused or at the very least taken advantage of while they try to get their channel off the ground, financially support the family, do childcare, cook, clean, worry about impending homelessness and are often pregnant.

Of course all this influencing relies on exploiting their children, unconsenting minors.

The niche seems to have taken off as it relies on the popular female influencer tropes of attractive appearance (hair and make up being just so, slim with an enviable wardrobe), instagrammable home decor (modern farmhouse is best; use one part of your home as your 'set' if the rest is less aspirational and/or cluttered), engagement/wedding content followed by new pregnancy and newborn content approximately every 18 months to 2 years, wholesome cooking/baking content (overlaps with the sourdough and raw milk fads), idealized family content emphasising the youngest kids and so on.

I just find it really disingenuous and rather predatory. This set up is only going to work for a small and privileged proportion of SAHMs whereas these influencers are trying to pretend to their audience that it suits all women/couples. You're just not trying hard enough if it doesn't work for you. More guilt. Not everyone can conjure up a long-term, reliable social media income and the niche is saturated as it is. It's setting women up for failure and financial insecurity while profiting off a naive audience ( via monetisation, advertising, sponsorships, engagement, algorithms etc).

Edited

Sorry not sure why naive audience has highlighted, didn't mean to and too late to edit!

biscuitandcake · 03/07/2024 18:37

Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 18:26

Oh yes, I hear you.
I believe there are 2 narratives, the princess and the one where, to be validated, you have to go out to work.
Tbh, I'm not conscious of the princess one at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just I never come across it.
I can see that it is problematic.
But, as someone who was a SAHM, I am sick to the back teeth of there being an assumption that my choice was a 2nd class one.
And I believe that there wouldn't be so many mental health with adolescents if there were more sahm or sahd.

As someone who went back to work sooner than they wanted, and is quite happy now working full time, its incredibly obvious that the school/wider community would suffer terribly if all the SAHMs disappeared. Usually a lot of the "extra" bits of schooling are provided by parents > with SAHMs being the most active, followed by WOHMs, followed by dads.
But equally - if all the women stayed home while their children grew up you would struggle to find a female doctor, or enough teachers/nurses, or paediatricians etc. Or, alternatively women just wouldn't have children.

A healthy society needs different people making different choices - it shouldn't be a competition. But your somewhat snippy point about mental health at the end shows that you also think parents that work are second class. So you are just as judgemental as the parents you complain about. But its impossible to discuss these issues without it turning into a bin fight because everyone gets defensive and goes on the attack.

Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 18:44

I agree, and I didn't mean to come across as snippy, I just think it's obvious.
I strongly believe every woman should do what she wants to do.
But I do think SAHM are looked down on.
And you're right, everyone gets defensive on these threads and we end up in our bunkers

FindThatThing · 03/07/2024 18:57

I believe they are mostly for views and with that for money.
People put all kind of content out there, to make money.

I mean if these women were so ’traditional’ or ’submitted’ to their husbands, they wouldn’t be / have time to be on social media, making and having money.

I hope younger women have media literace and understand it’s mostly likely bs / for show / to make money, and not their real lives.

biscuitandcake · 03/07/2024 19:05

Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 18:44

I agree, and I didn't mean to come across as snippy, I just think it's obvious.
I strongly believe every woman should do what she wants to do.
But I do think SAHM are looked down on.
And you're right, everyone gets defensive on these threads and we end up in our bunkers

Yes, sorry! I get very defensive :).
I have SAHM friends who feel judged for not working. And working mum friends who feel the most judged for not being home with their kids. But because being a good mother is important its really easy to get defensive.
Teenage mental health is complicated - some of its down to attention received as babies/in their early years as you suggest. But a lot of it is linked to the time their parents spend on devices versus interacting with them, the time they spend on devices etc. And most mental health professionals working with teens are women so...

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 03/07/2024 19:25

TradWife and Princess Life are very social media driven concepts in my opinion, they don't equate to typical SAHM lifestyle and living on one income.

It's all very polished and stylised middle/upper class 1950s aesthetic. Or harking back to some 'better' 19th/early 20th century era.

Wearing vintage inspired aprons and fashions at all times. Hair styled in rollers or curling irons. It's supposed to be 'simple' and wholesome but it's actually artificial and contrived. Rosy cheeked children who are homeschooled by mom (who seemingly has time for everything and is a talented educator for all ages, simultaneously). Living off 'the land', having chickens and if possible livestock (maximum TradWife envy points). Most of the ones I've encountered online are American fundamentalists and live rurally or semi rurally. The ones who live in the suburbs aspire to owning 'land' away from the general populace. I'm sure there's a city apartment living version, maybe more left-leaning politically. I can think of one family who live in Harlem and basically use their musically talented children for income (social media and busking).

It's not wearing normal clothes and raising your children in a fairly average, understated way as a SAHM. Being submissive to the patriarchy is a core belief.

The influencers I refer to actually receive quite a lot of premium women's and children's fashion and homewares free of charge and don't declare them as ads. Predictably their comments section is full of 'I love your X, where did you get it?!' which is great for engagement and looking like you really have it together (the reality is they haven't had to work as hard to curate their 'look' as brands are sending them items free of charge). It's all designed to look effortless.

Absolutelyfractious · 04/07/2024 07:32

Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 18:26

Oh yes, I hear you.
I believe there are 2 narratives, the princess and the one where, to be validated, you have to go out to work.
Tbh, I'm not conscious of the princess one at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just I never come across it.
I can see that it is problematic.
But, as someone who was a SAHM, I am sick to the back teeth of there being an assumption that my choice was a 2nd class one.
And I believe that there wouldn't be so many mental health with adolescents if there were more sahm or sahd.

Thank you.

I agree that the mental health of kids would be better if they had more time at home, where everything isn't rushed or chaotic/messy which often comes when parents are working full time.

You look at tradwives and they are seemingly achieving that, I can see the appeal and I actually watch a couple of them sometimes as a guilty pleasure. But the surrendering to husband aspect is a no, this could be utterly abused by the wrong kind of man.

Shortshriftandlethal · 04/07/2024 07:39

Do you recall that fairly recent fashion for long floral dresses? There were absolutely everywhere. I called them 'Little House on the Prairie' dresses because to me it seemed to be a fashion for women which harked back to more traditional roles and presentations.

It seems inevitable that some women will nurture dreams about what it might be like to stay home and create a home and garden, maybe working P/T. And for many women, if they are in a position to be able to consider that, it can be very rewarding to be around in the children's early years for all of the little milestones.

Shortshriftandlethal · 04/07/2024 07:40

Absolutelyfractious · 04/07/2024 07:32

Thank you.

I agree that the mental health of kids would be better if they had more time at home, where everything isn't rushed or chaotic/messy which often comes when parents are working full time.

You look at tradwives and they are seemingly achieving that, I can see the appeal and I actually watch a couple of them sometimes as a guilty pleasure. But the surrendering to husband aspect is a no, this could be utterly abused by the wrong kind of man.

That "surrendering" business is very American.

Grammarnut · 04/07/2024 08:33

MeanGreen · 02/07/2024 14:18

To a degree I agree with you. It’s not what I’d choose for my children, male or female.

Our mothers and grandmothers fought for us to have the right to choose, not for SAHM as an option to cease.

Something I’ve noticed in the last few years is that women who appear to have it all - careers, children, often lead very hectic and difficult lives as they are still the default parent. The one who has to juggle her life to fit everything else in, pick up ill children, make sure uniform is clean and dry, do the bulk of housework. It’s rarely men who pick up the slack.

The 4G movement in South Korea is a result of that. I suspect the tradwife stuff is just a different manifestation of the same thing. 4g - women are sick of having to be everything to everyone so they cut out the man and children part. Tradwives opt out of the work and outside life thing.

Agree. 4G and tradwife are both reactions to the lack of choice for women. Feminism was about choice. A capitalist world, however, has seen the chance to double the workforce and thus cut wages by including all women as workers. Now a SAHM is unemployed and econimically inactive - insults both. And many have accepted this. Since the eighties women who stayed at home have been seen as wasting their potential. Some feminists (I could think of another word) have even advocated that women who stay at home with their children should have to pay back the cost of their education (they usually mean degrees) as though raising children were a waste of education.

It makes me so angry that women are forced to do the triple shift of work, children and domestics and we tell them that this is liberation. It's just another form of being a 'support person' to men - one could call it slavery and for many women in many cultures there is no way out.

LittleLittleRex · 04/07/2024 08:37

I think there has always been women like this in America, the difference is now they are also "social media competing," with each other.

I don't think it's a culture they can export here, tbh. It needs that perfect storm of hard core religion, affording big houses easily, no decent maternity policies and the whole jocks/cheerleader culture in high school.

I don't think it's any more likely to take off in the UK than seeing arranged marriages and moving in with the in laws. It's a culture we just don't relate to.

Janie143 · 04/07/2024 08:49

A knock on effect of more women working after kids is massive increase in house prices. When I bought my first house in the 80s the maximum loan was based on x2 the male income and 1/2 the female, and you couldn't borrow a penny more. This was based on the assumption that the woman would give up work or go part time when kids were born. Now most people have no hope without 2 full time incomes. Same with rent increases now which will require 2 incomes for a family sized home. So economics have a major influence on who can't be a "tradwife" or SAHP if that's what they wanted

TempestTost · 04/07/2024 10:50

I think the online influencer element of this really muddies the waters. It's largely fake, or maybe better to say, spin. Like all lifestyle influencers.

It's also muddied because there are some who consider anyone who talks about mothers and even homemaking as important, or the problems of needing two incomes, or is critical of the progressive feminist consensus (such as it is) on this, is a tradwife - I've seen Mary Harrington disparagingly referred to as a dangerous tradwife more than once.

I home educated my children for many years, and so have some long ties to some American homeschooling groups, and I became friends with many of the other women. Many are quite conservative and quite religious (though not necessarily evangelical.)

Even within that community, I don't think the "tradwife" thing as some describe it is common. There was a period, back in the 90s, when there was growth among certain patriarchal evangelical sects, and they had some influence in that culture. But they were considered dangerous and weird by many even in that conservative community, and they have been very much on the wane for many years.

Lots of people have said things upthread that are on the money, I think, so far as seeing mothering as important, the problems that come from the assumption that there will be two incomes, and so on. I think we all know that realistically, it can be very difficult to have only one income (which is why influencers want to monetize it all I suspect.) It's even harder in the UK compared to the US and region makes a difference too.

In my experience the economic bracket of most women who do this is husbands with a fairly standard middle class kind of income (though often they may be in trade rather than white collar work) but they live in a more lower middle class/working class lifestyle in terms of neighbourhood, vacations, cars, etc. They are taking a financial hit for the mother to stay home, but also generally feel it gives the whole family a better lifestyle - they tend not to put much value on things like yearly vacations, fancy neighbourhoods, etc. Wealthy families seem to be rarer than hen's teeth - they might have mums at home but it's not connected to a larger philosophy in my experience.

But while most I think accept that many don't have a real choice about working, I think there is also typically a strong view that as a society we should prioritize social models that allow families to make those choices. So that tends to inform their politics. So you won't see them, for example, supporting Swedish style daycare, because that tends to lock in two income families as necessary for any but the extremely wealthy. I think criticisms that it's unrealistic in the current economy kind of miss the point, to some degree it's about a practical criticism of that model and who it's really meant to be good for.

Realduchymarmalade · 04/07/2024 10:57

I’ve not heard the princess or soft life stuff, sounds.. a bit dim? But I have seen various trad wife accounts on Instagram, it’s certainly a big thing. I can understand it actually, every generation is to a certain degree a reaction the one before it and young women have seen us ‘have it all’ and they don’t want it. And I don’t blame them. I look at the most recent two generations of children raised and I can painfully see that society could have done with more mothers at home raising their children, rather than letting the government drag them up ham-fisted just to be the next generation of low-brow worker bees.

lechiffre55 · 04/07/2024 11:00

In a free society people are free to choose what they want as long as it doesn't impact others negatively. If women want to take on that role I'm not going to tell them they are wrong. As long as they are happy go for it, and if it doesn't work out try something different.

SunshineSky81 · 04/07/2024 11:29

I don't have a major issue with the whole trad wife thing, but i do think it can be dangerous as it sets a unrealistic and Romanticized version of life that rarely exists.
Yes Women should have the choice to stay at home, but lets be honest with young women about both the benefits and the dangers.

A young woman who has not worked in years, no pension, no income of her own is in a massively precarious position, not only in the marriage, but if the marriage fails.

It will be interesting in a few years to see if we have a influx of these women in their late 30's and 40's whos husband who they thought would always provide and protect them and do the right thing by the family are now discovering that he is actually leaving to bunk up with his 25 year old co-worker and has no intention of being financially decent. These women are now left to be the main provider to children, and to try to get a job with no work history or experience and no safety net to catch them.

PixiePirate · 04/07/2024 11:40

I think it’s an interesting phenomenon. I agree that it has the potential to be very damaging long-term and also think it is symptomatic of mental health crises stemming from women needing/trying to be a perfect breadwinner, wife, mum, daughter, friend etc all at the same time. Like it’s all got too much and they are choosing to step back but feel like they have to make it a ‘thing’ to feel legitimate.

DeftLemonDog · 04/07/2024 11:52

I’ve seen some of the trad wives on tik tok. Portraying their ‘simple lives’ as being all baking gardening and happy kids, while ever-smiling, and talking in calm gentle voices, while standing in gorgeous or quaint kitchens. I’m yet to see a trad wife clean the loo.

Then I’ve seen a couple of videos by different ex trad wives. They are crying in their cars while telling their stories. About how their husbands have divorced them, left them with nothing or little money. They have multiple kids and are trying to survive doing poorly paid jobs. Because having a career and an independent income did not fit into the trad wife lifestyle.

I get worried when people say things like women need to live the lives they want to live. Sure, do that. But have a job that brings income and a pension plan too. I think it is really unwise to ever financially rely solely on a man. Currently, in Australia, women over retirement age are the fastest growing cohort of homeless people.

American Christian Nationalism seems to be a common theme in a lot of the trad wife content on social media.

UtilitarianNameChange · 04/07/2024 12:18

I think this particular trend will sort itself out, quite a few of the OG tradwife influencers are getting divorced or giving tell all interviews about how awful their lives are. It’s unsustainable really.

Being a SAHP for a time is fine but it’s rarely pretty/tidy enough to be instagrammable!

drhf · 04/07/2024 18:47

biscuitandcake · 02/07/2024 22:55

I read the article on being a princess:

'If you know you're going to a nice steakhouse, you should already know what temperature you like your steak cooked. For example, a 6oz filet cooked medium.'

Well, that's a massive princess fail right there because they don't cook the steak at different temperatures, they cook it for different lengths of time. No second date with Mr millionaire for a girl who doesn't know that!

It’s not cooked at a particular temperature, it’s cooked to a particular temperature. Rare, medium-rare etc. describe the maximum internal temperature of the steak. A medium-rare piece of meat reaches a maximum temperature of 130F (54C). The length of cooking is an imprecise way of estimating what temperature will be achieved.

But it is a massive princess fail, because any princess knows you cook a fillet steak to medium-rare and no further. Anyone asking for fillet done medium deserves to get onglet instead.

biscuitandcake · 04/07/2024 23:08

drhf · 04/07/2024 18:47

It’s not cooked at a particular temperature, it’s cooked to a particular temperature. Rare, medium-rare etc. describe the maximum internal temperature of the steak. A medium-rare piece of meat reaches a maximum temperature of 130F (54C). The length of cooking is an imprecise way of estimating what temperature will be achieved.

But it is a massive princess fail, because any princess knows you cook a fillet steak to medium-rare and no further. Anyone asking for fillet done medium deserves to get onglet instead.

Edited

Wow. Thanks for that! That genuinely hadn't occurred to me. If I ever am invited to dinner with a rich man who wants a SAH wife to treat like a princess I will remember!!!

thehappyotter · 20/07/2024 00:29

Sausagenbacon · 03/07/2024 07:25

IMO there's a lot of people assuming that women are forgoing great careers by staying at home. The truth is that most women , and men, have boring, ill paid jobs.

thats what i think . we have quite a traditional relationship .very happy . Finances in place .But alot of woman in particular are unhappy about it . im not sure why we have been together over 2 decades .
i do think there is a social media hype /trends but for most its just practical .

TheColourOutOfSpace · 20/07/2024 08:55

It's all part of the 'social media influencer' sphere. Plenty of young, good looking women have realised they can make easy money using social media rather than working a conventional 9-to-5 job. Hats off to them for capitalising on a new opportunity. At some point, the market will be saturated or go out of style, and something else will take its place.

There are the 'Only Fans' types that sell sex and kinky outfits. They give the impression any woman can make loads of money doing this, but only a few women rake in that kind of income consistently .

There are women showing off make-up tutorials or clothing advice. They get lots of sponsorships and businesses giving them free items to advertise to their subscribers.

There are women showing off 'healthy' living, trendy diets and fitness regimes. Again, they get free stuff and sponsorships to flog.

There are women travelling around with their phone camera constantly filming their 'experience' in a foreign city or country. They visit tourist spots, review restaurants etc etc.

There are the 'tradwife' influencers doing the same thing - cooking, showing off their children and chickens, blah blah.

There are knitting and crafting influencers.

It's all the same thing. Young, good looking women capitalising on their attractiveness in different ways to gain male and female followers and 'farm engagement' on various social media platforms to generate revenue.

We've moved on from the glossy, 'lifestyle' magazines that women would buy and read. The modern medium is tiktok, YouTube, Instagram etc.

Grammarnut · 20/07/2024 15:17

drhf · 04/07/2024 18:47

It’s not cooked at a particular temperature, it’s cooked to a particular temperature. Rare, medium-rare etc. describe the maximum internal temperature of the steak. A medium-rare piece of meat reaches a maximum temperature of 130F (54C). The length of cooking is an imprecise way of estimating what temperature will be achieved.

But it is a massive princess fail, because any princess knows you cook a fillet steak to medium-rare and no further. Anyone asking for fillet done medium deserves to get onglet instead.

Edited

Rubbish. You have your steak cooked how YOU like it, not according to some fashionable idea of how you SHOULD like it. I like fillet medium rare, I am not fond of blood all over my plate.