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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Coordinating spoilt ballots

443 replies

Binglebong · 29/06/2024 12:38

I know there is a thread about have you spoilt your ballot but this is slightly different.

I'm trying to hold my nose and vote for someone but there is not a single potential MP in my constituency who does not disgust me. I don't want to vote Reform or someone as a protest as it might be seen that they have more support than they do. So the liklihood is that I will spoil my vote.

I know spoilt votes only really get looked at if there is a huge number or if the vote is close. But just in case I was wondering if it is worth having the same thing written on all of them to show that it is a massive issue that is losing them votes. What would you suggest (if you think it is a good idea).
Respect my sex if you want my X is a good one but is it the best?

OP posts:
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Catiette · 02/07/2024 21:15

I just had a similar issue responding, very belatedly, to the Guardian's "What are YOU worried about?" questionnaire. Have set draft responses aside for now so I can gauge how angry I sound tomorrow and tone down accordingly!

Binglebong · 02/07/2024 21:19

Good luck!

OP posts:
Bodeganights · 03/07/2024 06:53

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 02/07/2024 17:58

There's no point all writing the same thing, no one is going to read it.

Nothing screams one issue vote like writing "woman = adult human female" on the ballot anyway. Beats me how this can really be the only thing people care about.

Lack of thinking on your part maybe?

The rest of us understand why we care so much about this one issue that in fact informs every part of life

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/07/2024 07:44

Bodeganights · 03/07/2024 06:53

Lack of thinking on your part maybe?

The rest of us understand why we care so much about this one issue that in fact informs every part of life

You say "the rest of us" but most people aren't voting this way, even GC people.

Perhaps it is lacking thinking on my part. I don't know, I also would consider myself GC and would class myself as caring about this issue. But I genuinely do find it surprising, even after thinking, that people are willing to forgo the chance to vote someone that would do better than the current government, based on whether that candidate thinks this tiny proportion of people are a different sex.

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 07:48

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 02/07/2024 17:58

There's no point all writing the same thing, no one is going to read it.

Nothing screams one issue vote like writing "woman = adult human female" on the ballot anyway. Beats me how this can really be the only thing people care about.

Why does it beat you that this can be the only thing people care about? Please tell us what you think we ought to care more about. Women should always put everyone and everything else above themselves after all, right? So please enlighten me: what should be more important to me than my own needs in this election?

Upon which altar should I sacrifice myself this time?

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 07:54

"Perhaps it is lacking thinking on my part. I don't know, I also would consider myself GC and would class myself as caring about this issue. But I genuinely do find it surprising, even after thinking, that people are willing to forgo the chance to vote someone that would do better than the current government, based on whether that candidate thinks this tiny proportion of people are a different sex."

@ColinMyWifeBridgerton it is a lack of thinking on your part I'm afraid. This is not about anyone in power thinking that a tiny proportion of people are a different sex. This is about those in power attempting to change the very definition of sex legally, socially and morally to suit the needs of a tiny proportion of people. Which will have a demonstrably negative and dangerous impact on the lives of approximately 52% of the population.

So to give a very crude example. If in an election a party was promising to fix everything but in order for it to do that you had to potentially give up your citizenship, nationality and language-would you do it? Would you take that bet?

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/07/2024 07:59

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 07:48

Why does it beat you that this can be the only thing people care about? Please tell us what you think we ought to care more about. Women should always put everyone and everything else above themselves after all, right? So please enlighten me: what should be more important to me than my own needs in this election?

Upon which altar should I sacrifice myself this time?

I don't understand this message. Obviously I can't tell you what you ought to care about - and I certainly wouldn't wish for you (or anyone) to sacrifice yourself on an altar, that sounds needlessly dramatic. It's not a question of "what you should care more about". Everyone chooses what they most care about and vote accordingly, as it should be.

What I'm saying is that I find it surprising that this single issue is important enough to push people to not vote for anyone. The people in this thread aren't even saying that they will vote for a party that gets these policies right, they're saying if Kier can't define woman then they won't vote for him. I mean, fine. None of my business what people care about, there's no "should" about it. But I personally think that some parties do much better than others across a whole range of practical issues that I care about, and this will inform my vote.

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/07/2024 08:02

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 07:54

"Perhaps it is lacking thinking on my part. I don't know, I also would consider myself GC and would class myself as caring about this issue. But I genuinely do find it surprising, even after thinking, that people are willing to forgo the chance to vote someone that would do better than the current government, based on whether that candidate thinks this tiny proportion of people are a different sex."

@ColinMyWifeBridgerton it is a lack of thinking on your part I'm afraid. This is not about anyone in power thinking that a tiny proportion of people are a different sex. This is about those in power attempting to change the very definition of sex legally, socially and morally to suit the needs of a tiny proportion of people. Which will have a demonstrably negative and dangerous impact on the lives of approximately 52% of the population.

So to give a very crude example. If in an election a party was promising to fix everything but in order for it to do that you had to potentially give up your citizenship, nationality and language-would you do it? Would you take that bet?

The example isn't just crude, it's completely irrelevant. Classifying a minority of people doesn't strip you or your citizenship. Like is said, everyone needs to weigh up he competing interests for themselves. To answer your question, if a party could fix everything in exchange for me speaking a different language I'd be downloading Duolingo faster than you can say TWAW.

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 08:12

@ColinMyWifeBridgerton both your responses to me make it clear that you have never lived under a system that attempted to strip you of your rights. This is how it starts. This is stage one. We are not being dramatic, we just know our history and we have seen this before. Women's rights are always built on sand, and they will be taken away just as quickly as they were given. It has happened countless times before.

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 08:21

"To answer your question, if a party could fix everything in exchange for me speaking a different language I'd be downloading Duolingo faster than you can say TWAW."

@ColinMyWifeBridgerton and again, this is a deflection and an attempt to denigrate our concerns. I asked you if you would be willing to give up your citizenship, nationality and language. Which means changing every single aspect of your identity, sense of self and associated legal protections. And your response is that you would download Duolingo? You have missed the point I'm afraid.

MaidOfAle · 03/07/2024 09:56

IwantToRetire · 02/07/2024 18:25

It would risk the secrecy of the vote if they were.

I have to say i wonder how secret they are, or might be in the future.

From memory as I remember from going to vote, they record my name against a sheet that has all the numbers of the ballot papers.

So at any time, should "the state" or whoever want to look at my record of voting they could do so.

(Assuming the info recorded on the registration sheet is computerised. Otherwise someone could spend their whole life going through a room of filing cabinets and still not track down my history.)

Assuming the info recorded on the registration sheet is computerised

The link explaining what happens to the paperwork didn't mention computerisation.

MaidOfAle · 03/07/2024 10:02

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/07/2024 08:02

The example isn't just crude, it's completely irrelevant. Classifying a minority of people doesn't strip you or your citizenship. Like is said, everyone needs to weigh up he competing interests for themselves. To answer your question, if a party could fix everything in exchange for me speaking a different language I'd be downloading Duolingo faster than you can say TWAW.

If men can claim to be women, they can claim to be lesbians and your husband can claim to be your wife and that you are now a lesbian too. They can claim that lesbians are "transphobic" for refusing to sleep with them.

If men can claim to be women, intact males can demand to be imprisoned alongside impregnateable women, with predictable consequences.

I care about lesbians and female prisoners.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/07/2024 10:19

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/07/2024 08:02

The example isn't just crude, it's completely irrelevant. Classifying a minority of people doesn't strip you or your citizenship. Like is said, everyone needs to weigh up he competing interests for themselves. To answer your question, if a party could fix everything in exchange for me speaking a different language I'd be downloading Duolingo faster than you can say TWAW.

Classifying a small group of men changes the definition of what a woman is.

The inclusion of a group of male people means a woman is no longer a female person.

So what is a woman? Someone who wears dresses and likes the colour pink? Does that mean that women who don't wear dresses or like the colour pink are no longer women? No one can tell us.

And what is the word for "female people"? Even now many people, from India Willoughby to Stella Creasy, are saying that trans women are female. So what words do we now have for biological sex in humans? What word do we now have for members of the childbearing sex?

Because our oppression stems from the fact that we are members of the childbearing sex. Let's be very clear about that. The way we have consistently been marginalised and relegated to lower levels in the workforce is because we are the ones who get pregnant and have babies and then do the lion's share of the childcare. The reason women of a certain age often find ourselves discriminated against in employment is because employers don't want to run the risk of us having a year off work and then another year off two years later, and they believe that we will be ineffective and unmotivated if and when we come back. This is the reason why the medical profession, like almost all other professions, is male dominated at the higher levels. And because the medical profession is male dominated, medical research tends to focus heavily on men's health issues and use male bodies as the default for research, at the expense of women. The fact that we are the childbearing sex is the reason why contraception is by and large our responsibility and why we have to accept long term use of synthetic hormones or foreign objects in our uteruses in order to avoid pregnancy. It's the reason why it is often difficult or even impossible to access abortions. I suspect that the reason girls in many countries around the world undergo FGM is to ensure that they never experience sexual pleasure and so have no reason to cheat on their husbands, making it a safer bet that any children they bear are their husbands' legitimate children. And I suspect that the reason why use of proper pain relief in childbirth is so frowned upon has got fuck all to do with epidurals causing complications and actually has its roots in the Bible, which tells us that pain in childbirth is women's punishment for Eve eating the apple.

What do trans women know of any of this?

Nothing. There is nothing about their lived experience which is relevant to our experience as women, and vice versa.

I think we need a word for the group of people affected by these issues. We are a distinct category of people with our own specific issues. Our sex is the basis on which we have been oppressed throughout human history. We cannot effectively fight for our own rights unless we are allowed to name ourselves and focus our activism on issues which actually affect us, rather than being force teamed with a group of people whose issues are completely different to our own and who only divert time and attention from our issues onto their own.

But trans activists, and most of the political establishment including Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and the Greens, appear to think that not only do we not need a word for ourselves, we should not be allowed to have one even if we want one, and we certainly shouldn't be allowed to organise ourselves or campaign on that basis or have any single sex spaces or sports. (Yes I know that Keir Starmer has claimed in the last couple of days that he has always been clear that we should have those things, but that is a bare faced lie.)

So yeah, the belief that trans women are women, which is based on literally nothing more than a small group of male people claiming that their own subjective feelings about themselves are what it feels like to be a woman, takes a huge amount away from women. It takes everything away from us, starting with the ability to clearly describe ourselves and fight for our own rights.

I'm amazed that more people can't see this.

Flowers4me · 03/07/2024 10:51

Well said @MissScarletInTheBallroom 👏👏

Thelnebriati · 03/07/2024 11:09

I'm amazed that more people can't see this.

Thats because you are still in the headspace of someone trying to build a fair and equitable functioning society.
For other people the impact it has is the reason they support it.

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/07/2024 11:13

**
Don't tell us how to vote, or not. It's an individual choice.“

The irony.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/07/2024 11:23

Thelnebriati · 03/07/2024 11:09

I'm amazed that more people can't see this.

Thats because you are still in the headspace of someone trying to build a fair and equitable functioning society.
For other people the impact it has is the reason they support it.

But why would the majority of women not want their own needs to be given as much respect and consideration as those of trans women?

This is what I don't understand.

TemporalMechanic · 03/07/2024 13:30

What I'm saying is that I find it surprising that this single issue is important enough to push people to not vote for anyone. The people in this thread aren't even saying that they will vote for a party that gets these policies right, they're saying if Kier can't define woman then they won't vote for him.

If Starmer genuinely believes that a woman can have a penis then to me it's on the same level as him believing that the Earth is flat or the royal family are secretly reptiles. So ludicrous that I can't possibly take him seriously as a politician.

If he doesn't believe it, but is saying he does, then he's a blatant liar, a coward, or both. Still doesn't deserve my vote.

anyolddinosaur · 03/07/2024 16:48

I've said it before - I see it as a choice between piles of shit. Why should I vote for anyone when they are offering me nothing to vote FOR. I'm traditionally a best chance of beating the tory voter, that usually means Labour. Didnt like Corbyn's fantasies but in reality he wouldnt have been able to achieve them. Starmer's fantasy that men can be women whenever they want to claim they are is a step too far. The party has shown me how misogynistic it is, how it is still living in a fantasy world and I cant vote for that. But Sunak likely wont survive the next election even if by some miracle the tories are not wiped out and the rigtht wing will try to replace him with someone less sane.

I rather like Count Binface being seen as the least insane politician.

Appalonia · 03/07/2024 16:50

I won't vote for liars. Even a 5 year old knows what a WOMAN is.

YouHaveAnArse · 03/07/2024 18:26

I've worked a count before.

Spoil your ballot if it makes you feel better in yourself, but you may as well write down your go-to McDonalds order on it for all the difference it will make to those who see it.

NoWordForFluffy · 03/07/2024 18:30

YouHaveAnArse · 03/07/2024 18:26

I've worked a count before.

Spoil your ballot if it makes you feel better in yourself, but you may as well write down your go-to McDonalds order on it for all the difference it will make to those who see it.

We. Don't. Care.

YouHaveAnArse · 03/07/2024 18:41

Neither will anyone else, so hey ho.

duc748 · 03/07/2024 18:44

You cared enough to issue a ticking-off. One of many on MN over the last few days.

Omlettes · 03/07/2024 19:04

MoiraPose · 03/07/2024 07:48

Why does it beat you that this can be the only thing people care about? Please tell us what you think we ought to care more about. Women should always put everyone and everything else above themselves after all, right? So please enlighten me: what should be more important to me than my own needs in this election?

Upon which altar should I sacrifice myself this time?

Well said. For decade after decade we have been told to wait, and be good, because there are other more ' pressing issues', both by political parties and the Unions.
NO MORE, we are half the country, time to stand up for ourselves.