Non binary children

[ArabellaScott]

I realised I haven't actually heard of such a thing as a non binary child before. I'm talking specifically about pre pubertal children.

How does a 'non binary' child present? What does it involve?

How is a 'non binary' child different from a 'trans' child?

I did think it was just about people who rejected gender stereotypes. I thought it was harmless apart from the annoying pronoun salad. However, I was confused by the underground poster for Pride showing a woman with a mastectomy which said They/Them - implying that people who identify as non-binary can feel the need to alter their bodies drastically.

I think some of the rise in non binary girls comes from shame. Shame at having a developing female body.

That was often the cause of anorexia in the same age group, when that was prevalent.

It's ironic because TRAs talk about Pride a lot but I think we should encourage girls to be proud of being girls, rather than ashamed.

[I know this isn't directly relevant to the Tennants]

Feminism will try address negative stereotypes so that people are not restricted by them.

Whereas advocates for non-binary will try and disguise their child's sex in order that they are not affected by them.

But that does nothing to address stereotyping in society generally.

It's understandable, but ultimately rather useless. and, of course, their child's sex will become fairly evident.

Plus as Mrs Overton pointed out above, it cannot be healthy to constantly tell a child they should hide their own sex!

For some completely inexplicable reason (heavy sarcasm) it always seems to be the female nonbinaries who have to be mutilated, whereas male nonbinaries more often than not look indistinguishable from a beardy bloke.

But you're still basing that opinion on gender stereotypes aren't you?

It's a load of bollox.

"Non-binary" child = vegan cat.

It's that simple.

If I were to be of a certain mind-set then I could easily label my 10 yr old DD as non-binary, possibly even trans.

• she typically dresses in 'boys' clothes because she likes trousers with real pockets and tops that cover her belly.
• her favourite colour is blue and she is currently obsessed with all things dinosaur
• but she also still has some dolls and likes making clothes for her soft toys
• she has good friends who are both boys and girls
• she finds the idea of one day having periods and growing breasts pretty disgusting and very embarrassing
• she likes doing outdoorsy activities like archery and kayaking
• she doesn't do makeup and skincare routines like many of her female friends do (at 10 yrs old, they have 5 step skin care routines and teach each other how to apply makeup to do that thing where it changes the shape of your nose and jawline FGS)

But she's not non-binary, or trans she's just a kid who likes a range of different things and is still developing her personality and discovering new and interesting things.

Trying to force a kid into a set of stereotypes label them and make them conform to a societal niche seems to me to be the exact opposite of what parents should be doing and the exact opposite of what some of these 'trans-kid parents' seem to think they are doing.

I find it all so confusing and warped.

I just can't get my head round the Tennants annoucing this on Insta along with fhe new pronouns. Kid was 9 I believe at the time. Now the whole family seem invested in this, Pride celebrated in the home etc. How the hell does the child row back from this when he wants to? If I was one of the siblings I would be tempted to come out as NB just to soak up a bit of that attention!

My daughter wants to cut her hair short and often likes wear comfortable 'boys' clothing. However, she says she won't cut her hair short because if she does everyone will think she is non-binary/trans - and that is now deeply unfashionable (in her school). 🙂But also, how depressing that a girl thinks she can't have short hair and wear what she likes and still be seen as A GIRL

And yet here you are calling her ‘she’ 😂

I am also a child of the 70s, and the way young children are presented (for want of a better word) now is far more gendered than in my childhood. And in fact more than my own young adult DC's childhood. It is hard to step outside those expectations as a child. I'm not surprised that children who feel differently want a way they can identify with others, and aren't just happy "being themselves" as I think PPs have put it. It's pretty normal to want to be part of a group, but if being part of the group "girl" or "boy" comes with such strong behaviours, it's easy to feel excluded. And while we may define those groups by sex (and IME of children who would call themselves NB, they are not themselves confusing sex and gender), the behaviours of those groups in schools for example, and families go far beyond that.

I agree. I find it outrageous and sad - The immense pressure on the child (which will only grow bigger) and the self-righteous narcissism of the parents. And it's all played out on social media for the likey likes. Morons

I think it boils down to this: should the words girl, boy, woman, man be used to refer to a human being of a particular sex, OR to a human being who has a set of likes, dislikes, behaviours and mannerisms that correspond more or less exactly to modern, western stereotypes associated with that sex?

Because I think it's important to be clear about sex, and because I think people's affinity with stereotypes changes throughout life - even day to day - and isn't really anyone's business but theirs, I think these words should refer to sex. The use of non-binary presumes that they refer to affinity with stereotypes.

People's affinity to stereotypes is very much not just their business. Other people make it their business. The gendered presentation of girls and boys is subject to huge scrutiny by their peers.

IME of children who would call themselves NB, they are not themselves confusing sex and gender

Age nine, I reckon children are highly likely to confuse sex and gender! Especially when the concepts are presented as fluid and interchangeable.

'Non binary' shifts the problem of 'gender dysphoria' from societal pressure and expectations onto the child.

I think teenage NBs are a completely different thing to nine year old 'non binary' children.

I had a Facebook memory the other day of when my, then, 2 year old daughter realised that big brothers were different.

Do these parents not give any credit to their children?

I was, as I said, talking about the children I have met, not what I reckon about children I haven’t met.

When I was a child, I insisted on only wearing jeans/trousers and what might have been deemed “boys’ clothes.” My best friend was the same - we played football with the boys, climbed trees etc, and went through a phase of insisting on being called boys’ names. We got to 11ish, and sort of grew out of it. Still lived in jeans, not overly feminine, but definitely knew we were girls. Was talking to my friend about it the other week and how these days we’d have been offered puberty blockers and counselling. We’re both straight, married and have kids. As my Mum said, it was just a phase - what was I supposed to do, insist you wore a dress and did embroidery?

Totally agree we are far more gendered today - which essentially means we are much more conservative in presentation.

Until fashion eventually swings away from that (although it's been increasing in that direction I think from the naughties and is showing no signs of relenting), then we'll get this kind of uptick of mild dysphoria if you like in those girls who don't embrace the pink, LOL girls, brow bar stuff.

Mild enough to identify into NB, not enough to try to be the opposite sex.

Yes, there is that too.

You see it with family sports or professions where it is expected that the child will carry on with the tradition. I suppose religion is the same.

But also once a child has started on a road to becoming a top sports person, or a doctor, or a musician, or even transing and the parents have bought into it, it is extremely difficult for the child to say ‘I don’t want this anymore’.

It seems to me to be pathologising a perfectly normal aversion to sex stereotypes.

Yes, definitely. There are no doubt also plenty of kids for whom it's not really pathologising, but just a completely pointless label that enables you to fit in with the quirky cloud. Ridiculous, considering that there aren't many people who tick absolutely all sex stereotype boxes. If anyone is 'non-binary', then virtually everyone is. Obviously that's no fun though, as it makes it less unique and special.

Non binary is again all about gender stereotyping and consumer driven social trends.

One only has to see the images of David tenants kids on instagram all dressed to the nines in sequins and rainbows, all with long hair. One of whom I'm told is Nb (faces are all obscured, no idea which one it is.) it's 'dressy ups.'

It's a "look" that has evolved into a belief that they're not a boy or girl based on consumer choices.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's also linked to children playing online games and changing their "skins" - how the character looks.

It's just as problematic and dangerous as trans identities as it obviously leads to males believing they have a right to female spaces and females to micro dose hormones with irreversible consequences and seek mastectomies.

I believe for women there's a concerning quest to remain childlike. Others deliberately take testosterone to deepen their voices - a tiktok trend, changing nothing else about their styles, gender non conforming or not.

Dressy ups has been given concerning adult concepts via queer theory.

One guess why all this benefits adults.

Should read - I believe for females there's a concerning quest to remain childlike.

As they don't want to grow up. Some of this is reactionary against how they see women being treated.

I would imagine some male children seek pbs for similar reasons.

I know a male child in y6 who has LD and autism who is completely terrified of the concept of growing up. Nothing to do with NB or trans, it's the idea of 'things being different' which is a huge source of anxiety for some autistic children and adults, in any context.

It seems to me to be pathologising a perfectly normal aversion to sex stereotypes.
Yes to this; also obviously driven by how lucrative the medical interventions are

I don't mind people calling themselves or even their children "non-binary" as long as they say what sex they are as well. It should be fine to call oneself a "non-binary boy" or "non-binary girl". "Non-binary" could be a nice shorthand for "noticeably gender non-conforming". If you call your child a "non-binary boy" or "non-binary girl" then at worst that deserves an eye-roll and sometimes it might even hint at useful social information.

If a child is "non-binary" then I still need to know "yes but are you a non-binary girl or non-binary boy". And no that's not like the old joke "but are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew" because everyone who is non-binary is still either one sex or the other, and it still makes a difference.

If you just say a child is "non-binary" you're suggesting that they don't have a sex that is male or female, or that they shouldn't have a sex that is male or female, or that no-one else has the right to know if they are male or female, or that it never matters if they are male or female. None of which are true.