Alistair Campbell on Channel 4 with Rory Stewart

[Screamingabdabz]

On ‘The Rest is Politics’ show…

Doesn’t ‘need to read JKR’ because he ‘knows what her position is’. She may thinks she speaks for women ‘but not the women in my life’ etc. trans are ‘the most marginalised and disadvantaged group’ etc etc Voters don’t actually give a shit.

Rory Stewart more nuanced answer and told him to listen to the Witchtrials podcast (AC’s face said ‘hell will freeze over first’) BUT then says as men it’s not really their issue so they should just ‘step back’.

Fucking infuriating.

I think the reality is more complex than this.

Absolutely, it's overwhelmingly men who are the underlying threat.

But on the political issue, ie who is causing the erosion or rights, shutting down of dissent, uniform institutional orthodoxy, there are lots of women involved (as well as lots of men).

I think that partly explains some men's reluctance to get involved.

It's like: if a man is harassing women on the tube, too few men will step in. Now add in just a handful of women passengers joining in and laughing along, the number of men who will intervene in that situation will drop to almost zero.

Anecdotally, the handful of people who have vehemently told me that sex-based rights are unimportant for women have all been women (three cases I can think of).

Very disappointing

i am just reading ACs book and im enjoying it, but he is so utterly wrong NOT to read what JKR has said that its making me think that other stuff that i have found very interesting in his book are wrong as well

i quite like RS but again its disappointing to read what other women who have listened to the show think

I remember listening to one of their podcasts recently where they were talking about ways for Labour to differentiate themselves from the Tories and AC casually threw out trans rights / self-id as an idea. He clearly doesn't give a shit about this issue either way and is saying whatever he thinks will curry the most favour. Quelle surprise.

I listened to this with anger last night. Generally speaking I agree with most of what the two of them say and I knew what AC thought on this. His dismissive tone on the pod outraged me and I am considering revoking my listenership. I think Rory's point was actually directed at AC - ie. you are a man and it is not for you to say what women should think and feel. What a (literal) dick.

Not listened yet but they pissed me off a while back when the Scottish laws were introduced and they accused JKR of making a drama out of it. And I don't think they covered the Cass Report at all.

I listen to their podcast at bedtime as it helps me go to sleep. Or I play Blair Bingo - how many times Campbell can throw in a mention of "Tony".

I'm not talking about who is or isn't a TRA @GenderRealistBloke
It's men in female only spaces that are the issue. Alistair Campbell can't just write it off as something that concern only women. I don't expect him to take responsibility for other men's behaviour but given that he has a podcast talking about politics, he also doesn't get to just handwave it away as only a women's problem.

They've both been tepid to bad about this in the past, although IIRC Stewart was careful to say HE didn't think trans/gender issues were important and therefore hadn't focused on them, while Campbell basically did a Lammy (or worse, possibly even a mini-Bragg) and shat on everyone who disagreed with him. Or perhaps it would more accurate to say people he assumes disagree with him.

Stewart might have opened up a bit but Campbell ... well, if the recent experience of his best bud hasn't offered a clue, he's perhaps incapable of removing his blinders. Plus the arrogance and carelessness of the "don't have to listen because I've already assigned her some words"? Hard to believe that this used to be a serious politician.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0012290

This programme shows a very different side to Alastair Campbell and his attitudes/relationships with women than I see posters assuming here.

I think AC is a self seeking so and so but he will be HUGELY pissed that JKR has come in late in the day with her criticism of Labour. I hope to god Labour don’t get the huge majority some think they are due - stuff them and f** him.
This will be the main reason he is nasty

I wonder what other issues AC allows his daughter to do his thinking on - foreign policy perhaps? Our relations with the EU? Policy on dealing with rural drugs problems? Housing? Or is it just this one thing

I’ve heard this many times from media people - it’s bizarre isn’t it?

His daughter Grace is a comedian and a privileged white woman in the media so her views follow suit.

@Igneococcus I haven't heard today's podcast, but in the past I have heard him handwave it away (mainly as 'culture war'). RS too, though he seems to be slightly improving. I think it's important that we don't have policy silos that only some people are deemed to have the right to speak on.

But from what earlier posters wrote, it seemed like what AC was trying to do was to say that he should defer to women more on this issue. Deferring to 'women' on this issue would not solve the issue, because, bizarrely, I think it's been largely women in the vanguard of the push to erode sex-based rights and norms. That's an even bigger problem than men-in-women's-spaces (because it includes that issue, plus more, and it removes the tools that society has to remove men from women's spaces). Ruth Hunt, Teresa May, Caroline Nokes, Nicola Sturgeon, Judith Butler, established women's charities.

I was reflecting to work out whether I was cherry-picking with that list, but (while recognising that there are also lots of men doing the same) I don't think I am. It accords anecdotally with my experience in real life.

If we deferred to the people with the strongest opinions on this issue amongst the people I know personally, we would permit men in women's spaces, not because of the men but because of the women.

I'm not sure I'm really disagreeing with any point of yours, unless you are saying that if we only listened to women this would be fixed. I don't think it would be.

I think men do have an additional responsibility to speak up on this issue because men have additional cover to do so. But not because men caused this. That isn't defensiveness from me. I think it's weird so much of the push has been from women. But it does seem to have been so.

He's a well known arse full stop
Didn't realise he was still alive tbh

Doesn’t ‘need to read JKR’ because he ‘knows what her position is’. I was going to say University failed him, but I looked up that he did modern languages, so I presume not a lot of source reading. Still an /interesting/ attitude for someone who if not a politician, was directly and acutely involved in politics. I don't need to read your policy papers! I don't need to know what you've actually said and stand for! Let's all just play Chinese whispers, as we never grew up and have no intellectual integrity.

How dare he describe trans people as the most persecuted minority in our society when Rosie Duffield is unable to attend hustings because of real threats to her physical safety? Where are the people at peaceful demos and meetings wearing ‘Punch a TW’ T-shirts? How many people have lost their jobs or received threatening visits from the police for saying TWAW?
I have cancelled my subscription.
(And what alternative political podcasts would people recommend?)

Men have largely caused it. The aggressive, trans identified men who have been politicking in secret to advance their cause and remove/dilute women's rights since as far back as the 1970s and maybe earlier.

You are right though about a lot of the push and policing has been from women who for whatever reason have allied themselves to the cause of these men. It reminds me of deeply patriarchal and religious countries where men set the agenda but some women will go all in policing other women - such as enforcing head coverings or performing FGM.

There's a lot to unpick.

I didn't used to like AC, but I read his fiction book "My Name Is..." and it was actually really compassionate and reflective, I was genuinely shocked by how much depth and understanding it showed to a young female protagonist.

I think he knows he can't risk reading JKR's writing as it will cause issues with his daughter, both between them and for her professionally. She is very much targeting the same audience that hate JKR, her last Fringe show was all about sex positivity, she's definitely pro sex work, porn and polyamory etc.

I don't think he's the kind of guy that can open a box and not dive in fully, so he doesn't want to start reading around the topic.

His daughter has probably asked him to please not get into this one topic, which I think he is trying to respect. I don't know what I'd do if I was him, would I actually harm my child's career for one issue, when there are hundreds of other issues out there?

😂 Now that's just mean. He's only in his mid 60's FFS !!!

@OvaHere

Yes I think the religious parallel works well. In that sense, I guess it should not be surprising.

Alastair Campbell is largely responsible for the dodgy dossier that led to thousands of innocent people being killed in Iraq, so we shouldn't start from the assumption that he is ever going to have anything thoughtful or well-considered to say on any subject.

As for Rory Stewart, men like him (by which I mean, white, privileged, posh background, Oxbridge-educated) have two blind spots. One is women - they don't really care about them or think that their needs and views are at all important, unless they overlap with those of men. A lot of men don't even realise that they think this, it's so engrained in their outlook.

The other is an inability to engage in logical thinking. You see the same in Harriet Harman - this insistence that the gender issue only involves a "tiny minority" of people. They can't grasp that if you change the definition, in law, of something as fundamental as male and female, then it has massive implications that eventually affect everyone - though of course gender ideology disproportionately affects the most disadvantaged, ie women in prisons, women in domestic abuse refuges etc.

It's always fascinating to compare how these people talk about the issue with how Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock talk about it. Helen and Kathleen are remorselessly, brilliantly logical. Their opponents can't muster anything beyond "be kind" and "culture war".

It was all very hand-wavy and dismissive. Let’s not talk about all that insignificant ‘women’ shit. We’re important men with a job to do - we mustn’t get distracted by such pettiness. It’s not important.

It was utterly depressing.

I feel like closing down on this now. The election will happen and shit stuff will continue to happen. I’ve just deleted X because it just keeps showing me porn and football threads from around the world.

I’m going to reconvene after I’ve read Women Won’t Wheesht and will hopefully get my fighting spirit back because currently it’s on the floor.

As for Rory Stewart, men like him (by which I mean, white, privileged, posh background, Oxbridge-educated) have two blind spots. One is women - they don't really care about them or think that their needs and views are at all important, unless they overlap with those of men. A lot of men don't even realise that they think this, it's so engrained in their outlook.

@RoyalCorgi That’s a huge generalisation - but I suppose because you’re referring to posh people stereotyping doesn’t matter. Do you include Tony Blair in that category?
I can think of plenty of people who fit the ‘men like him’ profile and they’re not like that.
As for Alastair Campbell……he has such a reputation as a shouty bully I’m surprised he hasn’t been taken to court for bullying in the workplace.
I guess whatever their real views on trans issues, they’re too frightened of the mob (who are indeed absolutely terrifying).
That’s why people who stand up to them are really, really brave.

I'm trying out Electoral Disfunction at the moment. It's Beth Rigby chairing it with I think loosely a lefty and righty woman commentator. I've only listened to a couple so far, so won't recommend as such as just say a female based political podcast is out there.

He is and always was a charmless oaf.

It was Alastair Campbell that the character of Malcolm Tucker was based on wasn't it? Unofficially I guess! Have I got that right?