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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bridget Phillipson says men with GRCs should be in women's toilets

96 replies

InThePottingShed · 25/06/2024 09:06

"So there we have it. Labour confirming a man with a GRC should use the women’s toilets. If elected they say they will make it even easier for men to get these ‘access all areas’ certificates. So much for their promise to protect single-sex spaces."
Fair Play For Women comment on Bridget Phillipson interview

Phillipson says men with a GRC should be in the women's toilets.

Safe Schools Alliance have commented on the Times Radio post:

"This is deeply disturbing from Phillipson of Labour.
The options here are that either she doesn’t understand the Equality Act (a Labour initiative) in which case she’s unfit to govern or she is correct that the Equality Act allows men into women’s single sex spaces (thus making them mixed sex & therefore not ‘safe’ for women & children) in which case it prevents effective #safeguarding & needs reviewing. Which is it? It is simply unacceptable for the shadow education secretary to have such an abysmal understanding of #safeguarding. We accept that there is widespread lack of understanding about what safeguarding actually is. Safeguarding is not about being kind, it is not about equality, it is not about inclusion, it is not about ensuring everyone is happy. It is about protecting the vulnerable & closing loopholes so that those who wish them harm do not have opportunities to so. Groups & individuals properly upholding safeguarding will never be popular - they will always be under attack by those that safeguards are aimed at thwarting & the many useful idiots believing their lies about why safeguarding should be abandoned. #RestoreSafeguarding "

x.com

https://x.com/fairplaywomen/status/1805374261764538423

OP posts:
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6
Keeptoiletssafe · 25/06/2024 10:36

Bridget Philipson or her team or if any journalists that are watching this thread please look at this:

Most people’s response to having mixed sex toilets is to enclose them, making them private. BUT this is unsafe for everyone. It is especially unsafe for women and girls, people with certain disabilities and anyone of us who may have a medical emergency.

This is long but clearly lays out why an increase in deaths, assaults and serious injuries will be the result of enclosing toilets:

Document T details the toilet design legislation that will come in to force in October for new non-domestic buildings and any toilet refurbishments.

There are 4 toilet designs:

• A Ambulant universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• B Universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• C Single sex ambulant - profile diagram shows full height door and no door gaps, no partition gaps

• D Single sex - no profile diagram, no mention of door or partition heights, AND can be designed as Type A or B ie fully enclosed for single sex use

None of the designs specify a door gap at the bottom of the door or at the top.

Why do gaps matter?

Because toilet door gaps save lives.

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.

There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are estimated to be 400,000 people with undiagnosed heart failure.

There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes.

There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet.

Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.

There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

A recent government report noted 80% of the thousands of incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. This legislation does not affect schools but they have been at the ‘coalface’ of new experimental toilet designs so it a good demonstration of what goes wrong.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as busy train stations and shopping centres. Women are pushed in or followed in.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  1. Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  2. Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  3. Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  4. Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  5. People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  6. The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
  7. Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this lobbying but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex.

ARUP was appointed by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to carry out research into the toilet requirements of the population of England in the built environment, in particular disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. The government also did a second consultation. I wrote a lengthy response to the second consultation, detailing the statistics and need for door gaps but none of these issues were mentioned on published consultation results from others or myself.

In the ARUP document, the justification (evidence and literature) for fully enclosed toilets comes from two American sources on p.129 of the report. I have spent time analysing these sources as so much seems to depend on them. These are a restroom design for a Minnesota high school and an American paper from Joel Sanders and Susan Stryker. The later two authors are referenced in the Minnesota project. In a recent Harvard talk (From ‘Stud to Stalled’ YouTube April 2024), Sanders said that transgender access to public restrooms rekindled his interest in queer space so he set up the ‘Stalled’ company with Prof Susan Stryker, but he admitted he did not have enough data on whether his designs worked as so few had been built. The reason for the fully enclosed idea is discussed in their paper referenced by ARUP: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

No safety concerns of fully enclosed cubicles were acknowledged in these two ARUP ‘evidences’. No analysis has been done on the safety on fully enclosed cubicles. The only ‘evidence’ was the Minnesota school questionnaire asking 794 high school students to answer mostly tick box questions, about the all-inclusive restroom design (very open plan, with security cameras, separate sink rows). Full height ‘walls’ were rated in 3rd place for safety from the pre-supplied answer list. Only 43%, who knew both restroom types, preferred the all-inclusive model to whatever design their old restrooms were (approximately from the reported histogram: 35 females, 83 males).

So the Arup recommendation for fully enclosed cubicles in UK toilets (in all work and most public spaces) is from a tiny amount of very poor evidence and literature focused on a different group. Their ‘evidence’ bears no resemblance to any of the designs of UK toilets in Document T. Their ‘evidence’ for enclosure does not take into account any long term health conditions nor disabilities’ analysis.

Considering it was looking at the requirements of people with long term health conditions, in the whole Arup document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. There are two pages of lists of references to handrails. However I would argue that a floor-to-door gap is even more vital in design for those having a stroke and those who are frail because of a previous stroke, so it can be seen they have collapsed.

What other equality impacts have been done?

I can not find any other evidence or research as to why the designs are fully enclosed in the published documents. Obviously this does not mean everything has been published. However, the Equality Impact Assessment for the Provision of Toilets (updated 15th May 2024) does not mention door gaps. It goes through all protected characteristics and does not identify any negative impacts of full enclosure.

Conclusion

Specifying toilet door gaps will enable offices, shops and entertainment venues to be suitable for workers and children with health conditions where there is a chance of collapse without warning and then Document T will comply with Equality Act 2010, The Health and Safety at Work Act (1974), Children Act 1989 and the new safeguarding measures for schools.

In terms of negative impacts for the protected characteristics in the Equality Act (2010), the absence of door to floor gaps in design affects age, sex (discussed above), disability (discussed above), and pregnancy and maternity. It affects everyone in terms of disease prevention, a medical emergency and fire evacuation.

The designs in Document T do specify that every door should be able to be opened from the outside and an inward opening door have a release mechanism so it can be pulled outwards in the event a body is blocking the door opening - but how do you know there is a body there? At the very least there should be a door gap of sufficient height between the floor and the bottom of the door to safeguard the occupant in single sex toilet designs C and D. As the designs are in Document T, there is no specification other than full height doors.

The government needs to enable people with long-term health conditions to live safe lives and help them be independent and in work. It needs women and children to be safe and prevent assaults through good design.

These designs have dismissed the rights of certain disabled groups (people with epilepsy etc) to a safe working and leisure environment.

There appears to be no emergency evacuation assessment and a fire risk assessment for a row of fully enclosed toilets compared to a ‘traditional’ row of toilets with door gaps.

There is no risk assessment on the impact of disease spread from less cleanable and less well ventilated fully enclosed toilets.

They do not recognise the danger of fully enclosed toilets for the chances of surviving a long term injury or death from collapse such as from a heart attack, stroke, epilepsy, brain injury, diabetes and fragility.

And they do not recognise the dangers, particularly to women and children, that a private space in a public area brings.

Single sex designs C and D need to specify floor-to-door safety gaps. If models A or B are used in single sex toilets, they need their design altered to include floor-to-door safety gaps.

It would also be life-saving to have floor-to-door safety gaps in all medical settings that are single sex in design.

I saved a young women in a nightclub because I saw her blue hand sticking out of the toilet door gap so we climbed over, pushed her body away from the door, unlocked the door, pulled her out, scraped the sick out of her mouth, put her on her side and she let out a huge gasp and we got her breathing again before the paramedics came. She would have been there all night in the new toilet designs.

Mind the gap! It could save your life.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Abeona · 25/06/2024 10:49

Chersfrozenface · 25/06/2024 09:53

You should tell your candidate and the party leaders that.

I wonder whether they'll take any notice of you.

All of us canvassing report back to the MP's agent and staff (and the MP himself if he's canvassing with us, which he often does) and tell them what people are bringing up on the doorstep. When I'm running the board (the list of past Labour voters by address, whose doors we knock) I write in any feedback we get from those who answer the door. My MP will certainly make his feelings known to Labour HQ. Two things seem to be happening to my eyes: middle-higher-income families (£60-100k per household) are beginning to worry about Labour bringing in more taxes and are backing away. And even Labour voters seem to regard Starmer as slippery and not to be trusted. One person said to me that at least with Corbyn you knew what you were getting, but no one has any idea what Starmer really has planned and even poorer families, who should benefit from a Labour regime, seem reluctant to trust him. It's what happens when you flipflop and won't commit. IMO I'd say people want commitment from their leaders, not this constant fence-sitting.

Elspyth · 25/06/2024 10:57

WarriorN · 25/06/2024 09:39

It's not just toilets Bridget.

What about intimate care in send schools and settings?

Also she's implying that men with mental health issues should be castrated. Which is essentially what the whole "process" is.

To be fair the interviewer did specifically repeatedly press about toilets.
I wish they would ask about other spaces sometimes.

AstonScrapeNameChangeAgain · 25/06/2024 11:02

IMO I'd say people want commitment from their leaders, not this constant fence-sitting.

@Abeona exactly this. Labour are vague and flip flopping around on three very polarising issues, trying to avoid saying something that will upset one “side”, but pleasing no one. (sex/gender/women’s rights, Europe/EU/single market/customs union, Palestine/Israel - I know the latter is not a manifesto issue for obvious reasons, but it’s certainly giving Labour difficulties.)

In many ways, Philipson’s comments are helpful in that they clarify the situation. She has essentially confirmed what we suspected about the vague statements so far. Voters can now decide what to do about it. The cynic in me suspects they have trying to be as vague as possible for as long as possible to lull those with a postal vote into a false sense of security, and are now being clearer because they are cornered. Or it could be unplanned, with individuals saying their own thing regardless of what the party line is supposed to be. What a mess!

Midgegreenstreet · 25/06/2024 11:15

Jeez is there anyone on the Labour front bench capable of critical thinking? They don't seem to know what they think.

My particular concern is the manifesto pledge to implement the Cass review but at the same time to ban "conversion ( ie holistic/exploratory) therapy". These two things are contradictory. Do they not know or care, do they just not understand the issues clearly enough or think no one will notice? It's a real contrast to the Tory manifesto which is precise and clear around the Cass Review and women's rights.

OvaHere · 25/06/2024 11:36

AstonScrapeNameChangeAgain · 25/06/2024 11:02

IMO I'd say people want commitment from their leaders, not this constant fence-sitting.

@Abeona exactly this. Labour are vague and flip flopping around on three very polarising issues, trying to avoid saying something that will upset one “side”, but pleasing no one. (sex/gender/women’s rights, Europe/EU/single market/customs union, Palestine/Israel - I know the latter is not a manifesto issue for obvious reasons, but it’s certainly giving Labour difficulties.)

In many ways, Philipson’s comments are helpful in that they clarify the situation. She has essentially confirmed what we suspected about the vague statements so far. Voters can now decide what to do about it. The cynic in me suspects they have trying to be as vague as possible for as long as possible to lull those with a postal vote into a false sense of security, and are now being clearer because they are cornered. Or it could be unplanned, with individuals saying their own thing regardless of what the party line is supposed to be. What a mess!

It's difficult to be clear when you're trying to uphold a lie. You have to tell more lies to shore up the original lie.

All parties are guilty of it over one issue or another.

Tories - "It was a socially distanced work event."

Labour - " It's a safe space for 'women' "

EasternStandard · 25/06/2024 11:39

The amount of times posters linked that pathetic Labour quote about biological sex and spaces

Of course it was spin. Bloody hell the amount of gaslighting from Labour is off the scale

Mumteedum · 25/06/2024 11:40

You know what... I'm not sure we're going to see an avalanche of male trans people in women's loos but we've already got a ridiculous amount of unisex toilets without more changes coming in.

It's an end to these I would like to see. I feel very uncomfortable sharing toilet spaces with men, even if it's shared hand washing areas. I hate it.

English Heritage and National Trust both do it near me, and galleries I've been to.

I'd like my dignity and comfort back. Washing blood from my hands in front of men I was at a conference with was an all time low and that happened five years ago.

EasternStandard · 25/06/2024 11:40

Elspyth · 25/06/2024 10:57

To be fair the interviewer did specifically repeatedly press about toilets.
I wish they would ask about other spaces sometimes.

We need clarity on this. Only taken 18 months to get one space eeked out under duress

Now we need to know the rest

SamW98 · 25/06/2024 11:45

I’m sure all of this lot claim to only want to pee in peace

Bridget Phillipson says men with GRCs should be in women's toilets
HipTightOnions · 25/06/2024 11:58

is she really advocating that we teach a generation of children not to be able to identify men as men? And if they do, they're wrong, punished???

Already happening Datun, and no need for a GRC.

And there's no guidance on this, draft or otherwise.

Cycleorrun · 25/06/2024 12:01

I intended spoiling my ballot paper. Now I'm wrestling with the idea of voting Tory. Can't believe I'm saying this, but the arrogant and patronising gaslighting from Labour is scary. I'm in a marginal constituency.

Abeona · 25/06/2024 12:04

Mumteedum · 25/06/2024 11:40

You know what... I'm not sure we're going to see an avalanche of male trans people in women's loos but we've already got a ridiculous amount of unisex toilets without more changes coming in.

It's an end to these I would like to see. I feel very uncomfortable sharing toilet spaces with men, even if it's shared hand washing areas. I hate it.

English Heritage and National Trust both do it near me, and galleries I've been to.

I'd like my dignity and comfort back. Washing blood from my hands in front of men I was at a conference with was an all time low and that happened five years ago.

I used to suffer very heavy periods at one point in my life and would sometimes emerge from the cubicle with blood-stained hands: wiping them with loo paper doesn't get it all off. I'd have been mortified if my sexist alpha boss who ruled by threats and sarcasm had caught me trying to clean up. There would have been no end to the Lady MacBeth/ blood on my hands allusions.

I was away recently, in a holiday home where for the first few days it was just female friends and family. Then at the weekend the men arrived and I had to start putting down the loo seats or cleaning up spatters before using. These particular men didn't seem to know how to use a loo brush either. It was bad enough dealing with known men in a domestic environment where I imagine they were relatively careful. I've worked on building sites where animals would have kept the place cleaner.

FranticFrankie · 25/06/2024 12:24

Phillipson just waffles waffles and waffles a bit more. ‘What about women?’
blah blah transpeople difficult journey blah blah blah …
has she never experienced what most women seem to have? Or has she been lucky? She just doesn’t get it
Take the election goggles off Bridget, there’s a dear

FranticFrankie · 25/06/2024 12:25

As for Jones- words fail me

GailBlancheViola · 25/06/2024 12:43

Well it is clear now:

Men:

You want access to female toilets and changing rooms, Labour have got that covered:

You can access female toilets and changing rooms all you need is a GRC and we will make that much easier for you to get. BUT as no-one can ask if you have one then just crack on those women won't dare challenge you otherwise they will be the ones in trouble.

gocompare · 25/06/2024 12:53

Will it be classed as a hate crime to ask to see a GRC. Bet it will.

I wouldn't even know what one looked like.

PronounssheRa · 25/06/2024 12:53

All this obfuscation, vague language, the use of bait and switch, inconsistent positions set out by different Labour candidates.

I don't know if it's a result of Labour trying to play both sides, or whether they genuinely don't understand the issues (because they wouldnt meet with women) But where it has led me to is a place of distrust. I do not trust the Labour Party, and I don't know what they stand for.

Smoog · 25/06/2024 13:04

Their problem is that they know the electorate doesn’t buy trans ideology but the party largely does. They want to pander to both.

Abeona · 25/06/2024 13:14

Just been talking to a canvassing friend, working on plans for this afternoon. She was canvassing in an area near the hospital and has had several people mention the nurses bringing the discrimination suit against the NHS for allowing a TW to ogle them in the changing rooms. One of the HCPs was a male nurse who was absolutely furious about the whole trans thing and worried that a transwoman who had worked in finance admin in the hospital had been accepted to train as a nurse (local university) in September. I can't say what the nurse on the doorstep had to say about it, it would get me booted off MN. But feelings running high in the NHS, I'd say.

Shortshriftandlethal · 25/06/2024 13:28

Nurses take action against their NHS trust after having been forced to share a staff changing room with a male who identifies as a woman.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 25/06/2024 13:48

gocompare · 25/06/2024 12:53

Will it be classed as a hate crime to ask to see a GRC. Bet it will.

I wouldn't even know what one looked like.

Tv Land What GIF by YoungerTV

If we'd all attended British Library's 2021 exhibition about women's rights it seems we'd have been able to see Shona Faye's GRC in its own case.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4304834-British-Library-exhibition-Unfinished-Business-The-Fight-for-Womens-Rights

Floisme · 25/06/2024 15:29

I remember when Labour first backtracked on self ID (July 2023) and promised to protect women's spaces. If I recall correctly there were broadly 3 kinds of response on this board

  1. Posters expressing relief because they felt they could vote Labour again.
  2. Posters feeling more cautious but hoping this might be a start. (I was in that group.)
  3. Posters challenging Labour as to whether transwomen with a GRC would be able to use these spaces.
I also remember the third group getting a hard time from some quarters. Well after a year of ducking and diving and absolutely shameful evasiveness from the Labour leadership it looks like those posters were absolutely right.
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