Using preferred pronouns in primary school

[itispersonal]

We have just been told a child in our school who has been dressing 'of the opposite gender' is now wanted to change their name and use different pronouns.

Where do teaching staff stand on this... I'm tolerable to using their preferred name but not pronouns and won't be going along that they are of the opposite sex.

New draft consultation from the government looks to side with those who are GC (but it is non statutory) and said no one "should be compelled to use these preferred pronouns"

Agreeing to a child's request to have others use different pronouns about them is a significant decision. Primary school aged children should not have different pronouns to their sex-based pronouns used about them.
For older children, schools do not need to specify pronouns to be used about each pupil and can decline a request to change a child's pronouns. Where a school or college considers a child's request, they should consult the child's parents and consider all the relevant factors as outlined above. Having considered these factors and examined all the evidence, schools and colleges should only agree to a change of pronouns if they are confident that the benefit to the individual child outweighs the impact on the school community. It is expected that there will be very few occasions in which a school or college will be able to agree to a change of pronouns. On these rare occasions, no teacher or pupil should be compelled to use these preferred pronouns and it should not prevent teachers from referring to children collectively as 'girls' or 'boys, even in the presence of a child that has been allowed to change their pronouns. Even in the exceptional case where safeguarding requires a school or college to take an alternative approach, schools and colleges should exhaust all other options, such as using first names, to avoid requiring other individuals having to use preferred pronouns. In these exceptional cases, schools or colleges should make sure that all relevant staff are aware of a gender questioning child's biological sex, to fulfil their safeguarding and legal duties.

Could work take action for not using the preferred pronouns? If when interacting with the child they are still treated with respect. The county council has form for taking staff to court but can't find an update on the appeal.

I'm so sorry. I must have had a 'senior' moment 🙄

There is a consultation still ongoing on the RHSE Guidance though, which is also relevant:https://consult.education.gov.uk/rshe-team/review-of-the-rshe-statutory-guidance/
Deadline 11th July

Why are you dreading this? What terrible things do you worry may happen to your twin boys at school?

I should imagine things like:

”Mummy, Miss Jones said that I might be a lady when I grow up”

”Mummy, my friend Grace likes football, I think she might actually be a boy inside”

Gender ideology is a dangerous thing to teach children. Especially little ones.

This article might also help you understand @rzb

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12905027/amp/gender-ideology-crime-against-generation-julie-bindel.html

Thank you!

I’m surprised the question was asked when the topic of the thread was about the concerns some parents have that even primary school children are not protected from the insidious creep of gender ideology.

@Leafstamp I read the article you linked. It doesn't have much to say about what's occurring in primary schools.

@Myalternate You worry that a teacher is going to tell your boys that they might grow up to women, to the point that you are dreading your children going to school? My kids get told lots of things at school that I disagree with, and other things which are presented as facts but which are simply incorrect - teachers can and do get things wrong, and it's important that kids know this. When we talk after school, where I think they've been told something which is incorrect, I provide the correct information and, importantly, the reasons I trust the source of that information. Where they're expressing an opinion which isn't one I hold, we talk about that, too. It's very normal for children to be exposed to incorrect information and views that you don't agree with whilst they're at school, and this exposure to duff info and contrary views is a feature of life, and will only become more of an issue with the advancement of AI. Rather than dreading this and the questions your children might come home with, you could see it as an opportunity to help them develop their critical thinking skills.

That's disingenuous.
My dd came home from school age 7 very indignant because the teacher had said horses have their knees on backwards. Why ever the teacher said that, it was just one teacher and there are no big problems caused by a kid thinking that - because there is no international campaign trying to mislead people about horse's feet.
My dd now a teenager struggles to even speak about trans identity or anything connected because all those messages are part of a concerted campaign weighed down with "no debate".
She doesn't just require critical thinking, but immense courage to even explore her own thoughts inside the privacy of her mind.

@rzb I suggested the article to help you understand why teaching young children that people have some sort of inner gendered soul is harmful.

If that one didn’t do it for you, you might read these:

https://archive.ph/C1kzo

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Whilst the latter is about a child socially transitioning, please remember it is all the other children that are actually making that process take place - they are the ones being asked to dismiss the evidence of their eyes.

@Leafstamp

Having read both articles, I can see that whilst Errol the teddy seems to be taking an approach to Thomas the teddy in line with that suggested in the subsequent article you linked (Teddy 1 perceives that they are a girl teddy and not a boy teddy; Teddy 2, their friend, then says they don't care if Teddy 1 is a girl teddy or a boy teddy, and that what matters is being a friend), 10 year olds don't often pay much attention to stories about teddies, so this teaching is unlikely to get that message across to Year 6 students.

“Thomas the teddy took a deep breath – ‘I need to be myself Errol, in my heart I’ve always known that I’m a girl teddy not a boy teddy. I wish my name was Tilly not Thomas’.
“‘Oh, is that why you’ve been so sad’, Errol asked. ‘I don’t care if you’re a girl teddy or a boy teddy – what matters is that you are my friend’.”

If the effectiveness of the teaching wasn't the concern you were trying to convey, then I'd also reflect that the first article doesn't provide evidence that children were taught that 'they have an inner gendered soul'. The notion that children have been taught that they can be 'born in the wrong body' is wording from a campaigner. The article does not make the case that children have been taught this.

Do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered? That seems to be what the article boils down to, plus a few quotes from campaigners which seem to have been selected for the purposes of winding up readers.

It seems possible to me to ask people to use a different name and pronouns for someone who has asked other people to do this for them without asking them to dismiss the evidence of their own eyes. e.g., if I were to ask a class of kids to call Bob 'Evie' from now on, and to please use she/her/hers pronouns, that can be done without asking children to believe that Bob is female, or has been born in the wrong body. This is one area in which the drive to teach children grammar is actually helpful - unlike my generation, kids these days get taught what pronouns are.

Perhaps there are a small number of examples where children have been directly told that a boy is now a girl, or vice versa. If so, it's perhaps a bit of a disproportionate response if people are dreading sending children to primary school due to a small number of such cases. This would be particularly true if it transpired that some of the cases people get wound up about turn out to be examples of the sort of messaging they are actually in favour of.

Thanks for reading the articles and considering them @rzb

The problem is the messaging. Teddy’s sadness will go away if he ‘changes gender’.

More likely Teddy is sad for other reasons. (Please look at the comorbidities discussed in the Cass Report).

As for pronouns. Google Stroop test, and read the ‘Pronouns are rohypnol’ article.

Keep researching!

Perhaps there are a small number of examples where children have been directly told that a boy is now a girl, or vice versa. If so, it's perhaps a bit of a disproportionate response if people are dreading sending children to primary school due to a small number of such cases.

I disagree. If it's possible for a small number of cases to change sex, then it's possible for anyone. Social contagion is huge amongst school-age kids, especially regarding anything that would make them feel like they belong to a particular 'tribe'. This has always been the case, and kids and especially teens have always experimented with their identity. Perfectly normal.

But adults colluding in this, and encouraging other children to use language which gives validates and gives credence to what might have been very temporary experiments in children who may only have explored a 'gender identity" due to curiosity or peer pressure is very worrying. Though no more worrying than in the case of vulnerable children seeking to escape their birth sex due to trauma, ASD or body dysmorphia for example.

@Leafstamp I've not read the book, just the article. Do we know that teddy's sadness goes away if teddy changes gender? Does teddy transition in the story?Or are the Year 6 children just being told that a teddy who feels that their body doesn't match the way they feel is likely to feel sad about that?

I doubt any of the schools where this book is used let it be read in isolation - there's likely to be teaching and discussion around the material. I think that's healthy.

Going back to my question, do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered?

What does transgendered mean?

The Teddy book is aimed at much younger children than year 6. You can decide for yourself on the suitability of the messaging towards little children here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRmNpLYgCM

Going back to my question, do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered?
Yes I do think it is somewhat problematic, rzb.
It seems disproportionate and unnecessary in a busy curriculum to include the perceptions of such a small number of people.

There are nearly 67 million people in the UK, and I bet a lot of them perceive themselves to be lots of things - should Year 6 children be taught about all these self-perceptions, or just the self-perceptions of 0.5%* of the population?
[contested].

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Is it your view that the phenomenon of social contagion should lead all parents to dread sending their children to school because they could socially 'catch' any number of behaviours or emotions that the parent deems to be undesirable? Or should there be a particular level of concern surrounding changing pronouns?

Changing pronouns appears to me to be more immediately reversible than, say, a short haircut, to use an an example from one of the links @Leafstamp shared. The reason given for a pronoun change should be presented carefully: presenting the request to use different pronouns because a child feels they would be more comfortable being referred to with, for example, she/her/hers rather than he/him/his, is different from saying that, for example, 'Desmond is actually a girl named Sheila, and because Sheila is a girl, Sheila uses she/her/hers pronouns'.

@Leafstamp It means a slip of brain/fingers happens sometimes as we get older. Thanks for pointing that out - I'll edit it ;-)

Does the Cass report apply to Wales? Have an issue here but with an older teenager.

@Leafstamp Pity, it looks like I can't edit it. That'll teach me for not reading the Mumsnet smallprint.

@MarieDeGournay I could get very on board with the concept that there are other things which could take higher priority in the curriculum. Critical thinking skills, nutrition, government and politics, better and more PE, and earlier and more extensive teaching of modern foreign languages are all things I'd like to see, and losing some elements of PSHE would be fine. Perhaps we could create a window in the curriculum by spending less time teaching Year 3 (?) kids what a fronted adverbial is...

presenting the request to use different pronouns because a child feels they would be more comfortable being referred to with, for example, she/her/hers rather than he/him/his
You've strayed into the problematic again, rbz!
It's problematic to expect an educator to tell a class of children that standard English usage is to be intermittently abandoned to make one child more 'comfortable'.
The question that will pop into the enquiring mind of most children would be 'But why does Desmond now want to be called Sheila and be referred to with she/her/hers?'
Well, Miss? Sir? Teacher? what answer can you give that doesn't require going into the whole meaning of transgenderism? And that doesn't require pointing out the scientific fact - it is a school, after all - that nobody, not even Desmond, can actually change sex?

That's a pretty dull story. I'd have been disappointed if it'd be read to my kids when they were little, because it's not going to help develop a love of reading. It might even be worthy of some outrage for taking time from the kids' school day to be read a crap story.

Is the subject matter unsuitable material for young children? I don't think so. If I'd have read that to my kids when they were younger, I imagine they'd have asked some questions relating to the name change. I'd have explained that one Teddy wanted to be known by a different name and their friends started using that name for them, and we'd probably have then moved onto a much better book, probably involving talking coyotes.

Asking children to use wrong sex pronouns is discrimination against ND children, children with learning differences, children with English as an additional language, as well as placing one child's wishes and beliefs above those of other children.

Pronouns are sex based in the English language, you are asking other children to unlearn what they've learnt, to keep one child happy, notwithstanding the effect on anyone else. Making one child's wishes paramount is a recipe for social contagion as well as for disruption to everyone's learning. Plus, what will the consequences be for not complying? If my child was punished for using correct sex pronouns I would be asking to meet with the head and asking to see the risk assessment and equality impact assessment they had based their decision making on.

It is not for my child or any child to have to make another child more comfortable, when what would make them more comfortable is compelling others' speech. You can call yourself he/she/xie, but you can't compel others to do so.

@rzb

I wasn’t actually referring to the typo, I don’t even understand what transgender means, really.

For me, it doesn’t seem to have a coherent definition.

Even stonewall say ‘trans’ is an umbrella term that includes cross dressers.

People who call themselves transgender have VERY different reasons and motivations for calling themselves that. And those factors make it too complex for a primary school child to understand IMO.

@MarieDeGournay Telling a class (your wording) to do something would be different from presenting a request (my wording). English usage also evolves over time, and kids are pretty flexible in their use of language.

Educators will teach, for example, chemistry to different levels without giving children an intricate grounding in quantum mechanics. Sure, some kids will always continue to ask why, why, why, and ultimately they don't get their nth question answered and teaching moves on. Explaining that a person feels more comfortable with a particular set of pronouns will likely cause a bit more interest than a chemistry class. For young kids, something along the lines of 'Desmond felt happier when he thought of himself as a girl called Sheila, and has asked to be called Sheila, and that you use she/her/hers pronouns. Sheila's favourite food is still KFC...' will be enough.

Will all kids accept that? Unlikely. Is there a perfect solution to these kinds of scenarios? No. Is any of this easy for anyone involved? Also no, and I suspect least of all the kid who'd like to go by a different name and set of pronouns.