Non binary

[gettinabitwindy]

What does it even mean?

I've got a friend whose stepson "identifies as non binary". Born male, has grown hair long and changed name to a female one. Dresses in a mixture of traditionally boy/girl clothes. Wears a bit of eyeliner sometimes.

Genuinely I don't know what they mean by this. I don't identify as anything, does this mean I am non binary? Most people I know don't either. Does it mean he's not comfortable being a boy, but doesn't want to be a girl either?

Effectively it boils down to certain people are what they say that are. And everyone has to go along with this if they don't want to get a load of grief. And certain other people are not are what they say that are if the certain people say otherwise.

The key point is what defines whether someone is in the "certain people" box or the "certain other people" box.

It's attention seeking. Too much time spent navel gazing.

So he's a boy who wants to act a bit more girly? I don't have a problem with that, but I do think having to label yourself as non-binary is meaningless and attention-seeking - he's still a boy, isn't he?

No one is binary. So everyone is non binary.

I guess so. But it's fine for a boy to have long hair and carry a handbag which is all that he seems to do differently to before (as well as the name change).

It means he wants to follow the trend and to appear to buck convention and defy stereotypes - when in actual fact he’s upholding the patriarchy by suggesting that to be feminine in any way must mean he’s not male.

It's all meaningless bullshit. Because you can identify however you want
Anyone is whatever they feel they are ... Because the pro/activists can't actually define what a woman/man is without using science. So they just have to come up with claptrap like ' a woman is someone who identifies as a woman " ... But don't press them for what a woman actually is, as they'll have to say something like "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman"... because the actual definition (adult female human) defies their circular logic and nullifies their ideology.

Identify as a Blobble and wear all red and only eat eggs for all I care, it means as much to me as that woman identifying as a man called Jack who likes to eat pies and wear football kits and go down the boozer and watch football.

But keep men out of (actual) women's spaces, teams and jobs!

It means he has sexist ideas about what type of personality and interests men and women have. He believes these sexist ideas so strongly that even though he can recognise he himself has some of what he believes to be a "women's" mentality, rather than seeing that the sexist ideas about men and women must be wrong, he comes to the conclusion he must actually be partly a woman.

It's just old fashioned sexism with the added twist that you believe you can choose which sexism you want people to apply to you while still applying your own sexism to everyone else.

Someone who doesn't identify as male or female
Gender non-conforming
Gender fluid
Queer

My daughter's female partner identifies as non-binary
I don't have an issue with it - they look androgynous
I have no idea what that means for my daughter - I assume she is still a lesbian
But what they do together is their business anyway and fuck all to do with me
So if they call each other partners/soul mates instead of girlfriends, that doesn't affect me at all
Non-binary isn't a label my own daughter uses but she respects her partner's choices who doesn't consider themselves trans, isn't taking hormones, doesn't chest bind. They just look androgynous without trying.

This pretty much sums it up!

It's also not a hill I'm dying on. I was brought up in the 70s and we called it gender bending back then.
I did tentatively ask my daughter whether young women found it easier these days to identify as trans or non-binary rather than just out and proud as butch lesbians but she said that wasn't the case with her partner. They are just who they are.
So - as I love my daughter and don't want to argue the toss - I can accept that.
It won't stop their partner menstruating or prevent them from ever being raped but if they feel better as [insert shortened name of their real name] and dressing in a neutral way (as I do myself anyway) then I'm not going to judge/call them attention-seeking or anything else.
I do worry a little as I'd want anyone my daughter was dating to be comfortable in their own skin but it appears they are, just preferring that terminology.

I think there is potentially a much bigger issue with males who identify as non-binary as there seems to be an increasing tendency for the category 'woman' to be extended to 'women & non-binary people'. In general female people who identify as non-binary are still just accessing female spaces, whereas I've witnessed several non-binary males arguing for access to women's toilets & changing rooms as they feel 'more comfortable'. From memory I think the lad that went into Monsoon to try on a prom dress was non-binary rather than claiming to be a woman.

It means she has sexist ideas about what type of personality and interests men and women have. She believes these sexist ideas so strongly that even though she can recognise she herself has some of what she believes to be a "men's" mentality, rather than seeing that the sexist ideas about men and women must be wrong, she comes to the conclusion she must actually be partly a man.

I've flipped it to see whether it applies to my daughter's partner but I don't think they think they are male in any way.

I genuinely don't know. Is it any different to me being a tomboy when I was little? I now know too much and have seen too much and have suffered too much. So I cannot identify out of the menopause in the same way I couldn't identify out of the pain of childbirth.

But if non-binary or queer felt like the authentic "me" and I was vulnerable/just wanted to be accepted as that, perhaps I would have leapt on that label instead when I was much younger thirty-five years ago these days I can only identify as Grumpy Old Woman/Resting Bitch Face, let's face it.

In general female people who identify as non-binary are still just accessing female spaces
Yes I think so
Not sure what advantage there is to be identifying as enby

The Op's friends stepson in some circles might be called a femboy but it doesn't mean they're wanting to go into women's spaces either.
I like a man secure in his own sexuality/comfortable in his own body to express themselves/explore femininity but it has all been tarnished as autogynephilia these days. We never called Bolan or Bowie that.

They don't think they are physically male but they believe their mind has some male traits, or at least some traits that are incompatible with being a woman. Non binary, trans, they all are predicated on the belief that some thoughts or feelings cannot belong in a man's/woman's mind, so if you have those thoughts you must not be a man/woman.

The problem with these idenities that makes them different to being a tomboy, or a goth, or other ways teenagers have found to express their "authentic me" is that they are using not new words but existing sex-based terms to label these identities. This has knock on social effects beyond "authentic me": (1) Since eveyone has a sex, they are not just making a statement about their own "authentic me", they are making a statement about everyone else as well, (2) these identities are being politicised and brought into legislation, meaning firstly that the law now accepts these identies as objectively real and meaningful and therefore the law is now stating that men and women as a whole are defined by the difference between their minds and not the difference between their bodies, and secondly the basis on which sex-based rights and social protections exist has been undermined not by honest challenge but by redefining the language in which sex based rights were expressed.

That's a really good explanation of the whole thing and made me laugh in the funny because it's true way.

Non binary, trans, they all are predicated on the belief that some thoughts or feelings cannot belong in a man's/woman's mind, so if you have those thoughts you must not be a man/woman.

So why would a young woman identify as non-binary? Is it internalised lesbophobia? My daughter insists not and obviously I'm not going to ask her partner why they reject female/being called a woman, but I am curious.

Who knows? Simple sexism, internalised homophobia, past trauma, actual bodily dysphoria, wanting to get out of what seems like a shitty deal gender-wise... I don't think trans or non binary identities have a single cause that's the same for everyone, I think they are a symptom of someting else. (And not always a big dark thing either, sometimes it's just a symptom of someone applying the ideas and language of their social peers without much thought.)

That's why the broad brush trans (cross sex) rights and medical interventions being demanded by activists and amplified by well-meaning but superficial allies is so damaging - because it's trying to fix things by accomodating a symptom rather than understanding and solving the causes.

The only person who can tell you what part of her personality she feels is incompatible with being a woman is her.

There is also a problem that these identities are medicalised. Quite young people are being encouraged to surgically or chemically alter their bodies to 'match' their identity. It's why so many older people, particularly women, are horrified. We know how transient these feelings of who you are can be. Imagine setting in stone the person you were in your early 20s for the rest of your life.

I identify as me, I don’t think I’m either male or female. Genetically I’m female but I am just me. Having worked primarily and professionally in a male dominated environment, I apparently have a male mindset. And on many tests, I score highly as male ( tests done many years ago, probably not allowed today).
I think today, youngsters are too hung up on being a gender. It’s not really relevant. They are themselves!

The only person who can tell you what part of her personality she feels is incompatible with being a woman is her.

It's not a conversation I can ever have, I don't think.
My daughter would never forgive me for asking and they've only been dating a few months. I can keep my big mouth shut. They both seem very happy.

I'm curious to know if these kids have any other hobbies/interests besides themselves? It seems pyschologically unhealthy to be so inward looking.

What does it even mean?

Anything and nothing.

It's building your world on stereotypes, suggesting dress and hairstyle has any bearing on or connection to sex, and insulting all of us, frankly. But our world is largely built on sexist foundations.

It means they think everyone else is a boring normie but non binary people are different and special.