Non binary

[gettinabitwindy]

What does it even mean?

I've got a friend whose stepson "identifies as non binary". Born male, has grown hair long and changed name to a female one. Dresses in a mixture of traditionally boy/girl clothes. Wears a bit of eyeliner sometimes.

Genuinely I don't know what they mean by this. I don't identify as anything, does this mean I am non binary? Most people I know don't either. Does it mean he's not comfortable being a boy, but doesn't want to be a girl either?

Well, no, that's what confuses me. My daughter gives it no thought at all. She accepts her partner unconditionally, respects their position, loves them for who they are. No navel-gazing. No labelling. It's me who's pulling at it.
I'm not too old to learn new things but maybe there's nothing to see here. Just someone getting on with their own life.
If they are rejecting the idea of womanhood, fair enough and good luck with that. We do get a shitty deal.

Rejecting the idea of womanhood will not address sexism, nor provide any protection from any of the problems women experience based on their sex.

It's a form of internalised.misogyny, that one could call victim blaming, although I can see the emotions behind it.

Isn't it rather misguided though? The reasons we get a shitty deal won't go away just by pretending to be something other than a woman.

But let's just imagine for a moment that you could actually escape female oppression by identifying as non binary (which you can't, obviously).

Isn't it rather selfish to effectively say, "I'm opting out of womanhood but the rest of you have to stay trapped in this box" rather than "let's make womanhood better for all women"?

Because it does rely on everyone else staying trapped in their box. If everyone identified as non binary tomorrow, we'd be right back where we started. People, around 50% of whom are female and 50% of whom are male.

No woman is raped or objectified because she is 'acting like a woman' or dressing 'like a woman'. Women's oppression is based on their sex, which has nothing whatsoever to do with what pronouns one requests be used.

Isn't it rather selfish to effectively say, "I'm opting out of womanhood but the rest of you have to stay trapped in this box" rather than "let's make womanhood better for all women"?

Yes, it's misogyny. It's saying "I'm too good for all the shit that goes with being a woman so I'm opting out." It's telling other women that they must actually enjoy all the shit otherwise they'd opt out too.

Unlike feminists who want to make things better for all women.

Because it does rely on everyone else staying trapped in their box. If everyone identified as non binary tomorrow, we'd be right back where we started. People, around 50% of whom are female and 50% of whom are male.

Yes! This is exactly what I was getting at, that's what confuses me but you said it better than me 😂

Precisely. As someone put it better than I can...

Wasn't there a sporting event for non-binary people which ended in the male non-binaries winning everything and the female non-binaries (or maybe their parents?) asking for the NB event to be split into AFAB NB and AMAB NB?

Yes.

"I'm non binary. No, not that kind of non binary. The other kind."

Sometimes I think the fastest way to get rid of this nonsense would be for everyone to start calling themselves non binary.

think there is potentially a much bigger issue with males who identify as non-binary as there seems to be an increasing tendency for the category 'woman' to be extended to 'women & non-binary people'. In general female people who identify as non-binary are still just accessing female spaces, whereas I've witnessed several non-binary males arguing for access to women's toilets & changing rooms as they feel 'more comfortable'. From memory I think the lad that went into Monsoon to try on a prom dress was non-binary rather than claiming to be a woman.

This.

Yes, non binary rather neatly exposes the reality of the sex binary. Which is inconvenient.

We're being forced to accept gender (personality/self expression) as the primary category for organising what should be sex based rights and that's a disaster for women and girls, including the ones who say they're not.

I see this as people opting out of gender stereotypes, and I don't have a problem with that

What irks me tho is that they don't seem to want to accept they have an underlying sex, so they have a problem being 'outed' as they see it by having to choose which loo to go into for example.

When I 'met' someone on a zoom call who appeared quite andogynous, I found it quite a positive experience

I think at its most benign it’s a youth fashion statement and at its most irritating its a political statement.

There are Zero non-binary Conservatives. Odd that.

They're not fighting gender stereotypes at all though. Their entire identity is dependent on 98% of the rest of the population conforming to gender stereotypes. Or at least, their identify is dependent on them pretending that the rest of us conform to stereotypes. Which of course we don't. But they have to pretend that we do otherwise the only thing that is in any way different about them is this silly label they have chosen to attach to themselves.

Excuse me, are you implying this all made up Bullshit?? 😱😱😱😱😱😱

This

... But by "opting out" they then believe in gender stereotypes and think they're absolute. They're buying into a non binary stereotype, of "this is how NB dresses/looks" and labelling it as such.

It's all fucking bullshit. Wear jeans, wear dresses, wear no makeup, cut your hair short, wear it long... It doesn't matter. Stop fucking labelling things and putting things in boxes. It's just reinforcing negative stereotypes, man must be strong, like beer and football, woman must like dresses and prosecco... Of you aren't any of these you must be non binary.... 😮🙄

Ugh

So true

Born male, has grown hair long and changed name to a female one. Dresses in a mixture of traditionally boy/girl clothes. Wears a bit of eyeliner sometimes.

In my day, that was called a new romantic.

To me, non-binary is setting us all up for a lot of future trouble, we should be worried about it, it's the thin end of a wedge.

I don't believe in conforming to sex sterotypes.

Non-binary will be used to make you conform.

For those who say they are non-binary - by doing so, this then changes the category 'Woman' into 'conforming to sex stereotypes and performing femininity'.

As a woman who has worked full-time in a male-dominated industry for 35 years I find that offensive. I often don't 'perform femininity'.

This paves the way so that in the future you will only be a woman if you conform to what they say a woman is (a man's idea of a woman).

Am I to be re-classified if I'm not wearing lipstick?!

You're tying yourself in knots here with what pigeon hole to put them in. Quite simply it's the following:

Your daughter is female
Her partner is female
They are lesbians because they are same SEX attracted FEMALE humans.

The fact your daughter's partner is androgenous looking is irrelevant here. She's female, a woman, no matter how she presents. She's not a "they" she's a "she". Why is she somehow less "she" just because she doesn't adhere to the stereotypes our society try and set? It's all bollocks and regressive.

Exactly this, and it is also a way of saying how much more sensitive and aware you are than most other people, and are in fact, so sensitive and aware that misgendering you is likely to cause you actual physical and mental pain.

The Victorians , I understand, had much the same attitudes to exposed furniture legs and women’s ankles. Plus ca change.

It's self indulgent nonsense grasped desperately by a generation that is floundering in a society that feels hopeless.

It won't fix a goddamned thing but it gives these youngsters a feeling of control. The whole gender bullcrap is this generation's anorexia.

OP, watch any Top if the Pops rerun from 60s/70s/80s and up to mid 90s. We've had decades of experimentation which we used to call 'gender bending'.

Punks, glam rock, new romantics, goths etc. Look at Annie Lennox in the Sweet Dreams era. How on earth would she be described today?! Lol.

Non binary is the latest expression on something we've always done. The difference is, the gender expression of old sought to smash stereotypes. Non binary however puts everyone in a box and make gender stereotypes 'real' rather than a construct.

Yes, under non binary rules anyone can lay claim to it in theory, even you. The open secret is that everyone is non binary because 'gender stereotypes' aren't real. The reality is that non binary people just assume a look that any of these former tribes have done. They look a bit 'edgy' and 'alternative'. So that's all it is really.

I think we live in very conservative times of how males and females look and this has fuelled this concept.

As someone who was a teen in the 1980s, I really don't get why everyone has to be classified and put into a box and labelled. It's a really backwards step to take.

Single sex spaces and characteristics should be protected, but why do we then have to label everyone? Why can't everyone just get on and do their thing? Sex matters, gender is a construct, and a poorly thought out one as it stands.