Article about lesbian bar in Sunday Times

[mcduffy]

I clicked on knowing what was going to be written so scanned down and went for the comments... turned off

La Camionera: this lesbian bar in Hackney is London’s new hotspot

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ba445af-4806-4f8e-a80e-9c6e2af03154?shareToken=eed52000ddb0db3346d103a16665aa48

can you summarise please, the links never work for me

Here's an earlier thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5020568-mention-of-dangerous-terf-led-lesbian-bar

So it's a bar for everyone, that calls itself a lesbian bar and thinks slapping this name on somehow avoids "heteronormativity"? Why the transphobic "tiles depicting the female form", I wonder.

Pictures of women's bodies decorating bars aren't exactly anything different from the norm!

Comments have been turned off...

If it ends up being a place that women can go to be themselves then I'm all for it. Often communities centre around places regardless of who the stated audience is, as long as they don't get targeted for harassment.

Isn't the photo showing the two 'lesbian' owners a photo of a man and a woman? Genuine question as I can't see it confirmed anywhere that Alex Loveless is a man, who I presume is now a trans woman claiming to be a lesbian (something I don't believe is possible)?

According to someone on the other thread, Alex is female (described as 'trans masc').

Yes, it's not an actual lesbian bar. In another article said this:

La Camionera’s opening has acted as a beacon of hope for the sapphic community, especially following the news that a trans-exclusionary bar named L Community will be opening in London later this year.

“It’s a way for us to keep that word alive but without excluding people,” [Alex] explained.

diva-magazine.com/2024/03/04/la-camionera-interview/

So more linguistic butchery, nothing else.

Also, Camionera means truck driver, which is a slur against butch lesbians.

Exactly...the names a slur...so much for inclusivity

“While some people tend to think lesbian means cis women who love other cis women, for Loveless and Solis, it is open to whoever wants to claim it”

And then the article goes on to list lots of other venues and organisations that are participating enthusiastically in their own erasure.

Also, Camionera means truck driver, which is a slur against butch lesbians.
I'm open to correction, but isn't camionera just used in Spanish to describe, not to 'slur' butch lesbians ? Like 'diesel' in English? Only a slur if you don't actually intend to be that butch, just have limited wardrobe variation and can't be bothered with fluffy stuff
On the main point: [sorry I get sidetracked easily by words...] a bar which claims to be something specific - lesbian in this case - but in fact goes out of its way to be non-specific is just.. a bar. Possibly a very nice one, I don't know and I'm never going to find out, but just A Bar.

"They are also happy with Flinta (female, lesbian, intersex, nonbinary, trans and agender), an acronym that originated in Germany.".....

I'm not a lesbian so don't claim to speak for lesbians. But this seems a deliberate attempt to muscle unconnected groups into a definition that is not theirs. Surely "most people think" lesbian means women loving other women...because it does!!!!

I'm female but I'm not a lesbian (married to a man for decades) but I could legitimately go to this lesbian bar that is not for me.

I AM a lesbian, and you are 100% right.

It's like a riddle, isn't it? "When is a lesbian bar not a lesbian bar?"

Lesbian is not open to anyone who wants to claim it! It has a specific meaning and describes a specific group of people! It is our word- everyone else can fuck off and find another word! GAH!

If Alex is female, then they must be a trans-identified female, as there is no way that person's body and face haven't been formed under the influence of testosterone. If you don't believe you are a woman, then you don't get to call yourself a lesbian.

@IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine

So, If you believe you are a woman, can you call yourself a lesbian? I thought you actually had to be a woman (ie two X chromosomes) and be attracted to other women, to qualify as a lesbian?

No, men who believe they are women definitely don't get to call themselves lesbians either! Because they are not lesbians, as you say.

My point is that, if a biological female claims they are not a woman, but says they are a lesbian (there are a growing number of 'non-binary lesbians'), they are contributing to the idea that a lesbian is anything other than a woman who is sexually attracted exclusively to women.

Many organisations now give the definition of lesbian as "a non-man attracted to non-men", which, as well as being insulting in the extreme, means that a goldfish who is sexually attracted to a giraffe is also a lesbian.

a goldfish who is sexually attracted to a giraffe

Anything goes in London.

Not this pair of self-promoting wazzocks again? There’s already been several news articles covering the opening of these premises. Why? It’s a lesbian bar for anyone who calls themself a lesbian. So a bar, then. 😴

@IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine ah ha, yes I get you now.

My onebaldandonehairy eyeballs are rolling out of my head right now.

Alex is a trans masc lesbian: Obviously.

Can I just clarify, is a 'trans masc lesbian'

1. A woman who has transitioned or identifies as a man, who has male gender characteristics and fancies women?

Or

1. A man who has transitioned or identifies as a woman, has male gender characteristics and fancies women?

Or can it be both?

Genuine question.

I get that sex and gender have been decoupled these days. But in scenario 1, we have a woman who is essentially operating as a straight man. In 2. we have a man who is operating as a straight man. Doesn't that mean straight men are also lesbians?

Or is that doing a disservice to masculine lesbians, and perhaps even straight women who aren't 'girly' and just dress in comfortable, functional clothing/ are up for doing practical tasks/ look and or act a bit manish?

Are butch lesbians in danger of being told they have to identify as straight men, because their gender is male (if gender runs on a spectrum from barbie to gi joe).

I am genuinely confused about this. Can anyone play devils advocate from the usual MN GC position and have a crack at explaining this in a way that someone from the trans lobby would explain it?

@Superlambaanana

Being confused about meanings is a feature, not a bug. Queer theory demands the blurring of categories in order to eliminate them.

Trans masc, in my understanding, is a trans person who presents as masculine. It need not refer to a person's sex at all.

As the article says, practically all the lesbian bars in the UK have closed down. Most regular lesbian bar goers are in their 20s and 30s and clearly perfectly happy to go to an inclusive venue which nevertheless is predominantly full of women who fancy women. Setting up a bar of any sort is difficult, as the article makes clear, and trying to set up a bar for biologically female lesbians only would be a total nightmare (see what brave Jenny Watson is going through).

I think it's great. Good luck to them!

My understanding is that it would be the first one. But, as @Ingenieur says, words are essentially meaningless in queer theory, so who the fuck knows?

Are butch lesbians in danger of being told they have to identify as straight men, because their gender is male (if gender runs on a spectrum from barbie to gi joe).

In a nutshell, yes. Someone from the trans lobby would say, "No, of course not, only the individual can say whether they are a butch lesbian or a trans man," but those same individuals are the ones encouraging butch teenage lesbians that they are, in fact, boys and need to transition, and they are also the same ones who are rewriting history so that any butch lesbian who isn't alive any more is recategorised as a trans man.

There have never been any butch lesbians throughout the whole of human history, apparently; they were all actually men. Who knew?