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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Countries that are truly liberal, safe, and not captured by gender ideology?

65 replies

HelenaRavenclaw · 25/05/2024 19:23

I just listened to Ted Cruz grilling a New York judge to ordered a trans-identifying male serial rapist to be transferred to a women's prison. It seems like there's nowhere we can get the best of both worlds, a place where men are not allowed to legally identify as women and invade women's safe spaces, and where society is progressive and safe for women. The most "progressive" places like California, New York, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, etc. are captured by gender ideology. England fares slightly better than Scotland, but with Labour likely to be at the helm soon I have little hope for improvement in this regard.

Places that don't pander to gender ideology are unsafe in other respects -- the deep south of America has widespread gun ownership and racism, the middle east's treatment of women is appalling, and so on. Without sacrificing quality of life and healthcare safety standards, is there any "first-world" democratic country, or region of such a country, that is truly good for women?

OP posts:
biddyboo · 26/05/2024 09:56

Labour have ruled out self ID, haven't they? Although I know the concerns is they will bring it in through the back door. It's interesting that a lot of trans people are very anti-labour because of their stance of self ID, but GCs don't trust them either.

I think I'm more worried about a hung parliament than Labour getting an outright majority. It concerns me that they'll end up doing a deal with the Greens (or Lib Dems) and you saw how that panned out in Scotland 🙁

MarieDeGournay · 26/05/2024 13:22

PurpleAxe · 26/05/2024 09:17

There is nowhere to run. We have to stay and fight.

Grim, but true, PurpleAxe.

I don't believe in 'progress' in lots of things - technology, for instance, where the shiniest and most profitable can win out over the technologically superior - and for a long time I've felt that 'progress' in women's rights is ephemeral, and the longer I live the more I see proof.

I would never have thought that Roe v Wade would be brushed aside; I would never have thought that a law could be brought in that said that a man is a woman; I would never have thought that it would become 'politically correct' for men to physically attack women defending their rights; and on and on and on..
[ I also would never have thought, after decades of a powerful Civil Rights movement in the US, that a group of White police officers could slowly and calmly kill a Black man in public, despite being aware that they were being filmed..]
Progress? No, it looks like cycles of resistance and backlash, over and over.

I think the problem for women is that we live with our ...um, can I say 'oppressor' for the sake of brevity? Our lives are intertwined, often very intimately, with the group whose interests are not the same as ours, and many of whom entertain violent intentions towards us. They are always in our face, and vice versa. It's not like a struggle for national independence, where the occupying force gets beaten, withdraws its troops, and we set up our own democratic republic and, ideally, live happily ever after.

La lutte continue, a luta continua, etc. All women are, and every woman is up against it, individually and continually, as the stats for sexual violence show.

And I don't see any progress out of this situation, just, as PurpleAxe says, stand and fight. Wearying and wearing, but nobody else is going to do it for us, as our experience of 'progressives' and 'The Left' and 'liberal society' demonstrates.

Gosh that's miserableSad sorry for such a downer, but sadly it's what I think is the case. And it's not all bad, there's FWR and LWS and brilliant lawyers and support-gerbils..

quantumbutterfly · 26/05/2024 13:59

PurpleAxe · 26/05/2024 09:17

There is nowhere to run. We have to stay and fight.

This

quantumbutterfly · 26/05/2024 14:02

TheColourOutOfSpace · 26/05/2024 09:27

Every human society and culture will always have to grapple with balancing The Collective vs The Individual. There is plenty of good in both, but either extreme can be terrible.

I don't think we've quite got a handle on how to pragmatically balance both just yet.

The Collective is about family, duty, solidarity and so on. And it can be good for protecting women and children, preserving culture and tradition, fostering a sense of respect and loyalty to your country and your people.

However, too much adherence to The Collective will stifle The Individual. People suffer because their personal freedoms will always be disregarded in favour of the 'greater good'. How you dress, what you eat, who you marry, what choices are available to you etc are all controlled by religious institutions, parents and other 'elders' in society. This ends up hurting women and children because any abuse or suffering is ignored as long as The Collective remains in good standing.

The Individual is about self-actualisation - being able to pursue your personal dreams and desires, such as marrying someone of your choice, finding a career that interests and fulfills you, deciding whether you want to have children or not, dressing in a way that expresses your personal taste and so on.

However, too much adherence to The Individual will cause an atomisation of society. Every endeavour is about maximising personal freedom and choice and wealth, irrespective of how it impacts other people, especially women, children, elderly, poor etc. Any suggestion of even mildly curbing one's personal freedoms for the sake of The Collective is viewed as an egregious violation. The Individual must never be expected to sacrifice anything! The focus is always on freedoms and never about any responsibility.

Many Western democracies understood the failings of blind support for The Collective and western societies have improved by moving towards respect for The Individual.
Unfortunately, pendulums tend to swing from one extreme to the other, so for quite a few decades we have been indulging in blind fervour for The Individual.

The concept of 'human rights' has stopped being about people being persecuted or violently subjugated by the state, to things like rapists should be allowed to be in women's prisons because otherwise they are 'oppressed' and denied from being able to 'live their authentic life'.

The focus is exclusively on 'I should always be allowed to do whatever I want, however I want with no repercussions or restrictions.'
Issues like surrogacy are framed as wonderful expressions of individual fulfilment: 'I am entitled to children by whatever means possible.' instead of an attack on the collective: 'Women's bodies are being exploited, babies are treated as a commodity and their well-being is neglected by severing the mother-baby bond.'

If surrogacy is banned, a tiny proportion of individuals may be unable to easily purchase biological offspring at the expense of others. If we take a collective approach, this is unfortunate but acceptable, because women and children as a whole are ultimately not being devalued and exploited.
If we take an individual approach, this tiny proportion of people should be able to dictate and override any concerns because ultimately all that matters is their own personal fulfillment of their desires. Individuals should never be expected to face any denial of their wishes.

And this is where the heart of the tension lies: being denied from fulfilling any of our personal wishes is a horrible way to live, but should we expect to always have our personal wishes fulfilled?

And what happens when two different individual wishes clash? If a woman deeply wishes for a single-sex space or service to feel secure, and a man wishes to insert himself in that space or service because it makes him happy - what then?

People who favour The Individual will want to prioritise the man's happiness over the woman's sense of safety, especially if the man claims an 'oppressed minority' status. Because as I mentioned above, 'oppression' today in Western society is not about violent subjugation but the denial of personal desire.

Instead of blind, wholesale allegiance to The Individual or The Collective, we need to move towards a nuanced evaluation of issues and determining the threshold at which individual freedoms may be curbed for collective safeguarding and vice versa.

Some people are slowly starting to think about this. I haven't read her book yet, but I believe Mary Harrington deals with aspects of this in 'Feminism Against Progress'.

Excellent analysis thank you.

HelenaRavenclaw · 26/05/2024 17:02

MyOleMan · 26/05/2024 09:39

The culture in france, Italy, Greece, are all much better in reality than TERF island. The uk has good laws but the lgbtq culture is deeply ingrained in a way that it isn’t in other countries. Eg there are 10 kids in total on puberty blockers within the health service in Ireland, UK has roughly six times bigger population, so the equivalent would be roughly 60 kids on puberty blockers. In reality it’s much much more

I'm not well-versed in the laws of Italy, France, etc. pertaining to freedom of speech -- are those countries more likely than the UK to punish someone for misgendering / stating GC views? Not sure if this makes sense though, because in the US the 1st amendment seems to cover a lot but still people get into trouble for GC speech.

OP posts:
TempestTost · 26/05/2024 19:22

I think the fact is that countries that are more socially conservative are doing better on this.

That doesn't mean they are totally static on social issues.

But it means they don't have the attitude that social structures, like marriage, are just totally arbitrary constructs that exist to actualize individuals. Nor that it is possible to deconstruct biology entirely.

What that means though is they may not have been so quick to think you can just assume women and men are completely interchangeable in the workforce, or as parents, or that marriage isn't anything to do with reproductive categories.

Countries like this, in consequence, may not in fact be as "progressive" as the average person in the UK might like, in one area or another.

A lot of the countries that are most "liberal" are also very constructivist in their outlook, and they have the idea that they can change ideas and language and thereby change reality.

anothernamitynamenamechange · 26/05/2024 22:42

Japan: JAPAN: Rape Crisis Center Denied Funding After Founder Denounced as 'Transphobic' - Reduxx

There have also been huge efforts to push through a LGBT bill that would ban discrimination against gender identity. So its the same pattern of organisations already being punished for not opening their services to men, and legislation being pushed to make it possible.

The problem is, a country can have very conservative values at population level, but still have quite "progressive" legislation pushed through at government level. Especially when the issue isn't on peoples radar the way other issues might be (its a much less familiar issue than e.g. abortion/gay rights/women's place in the home etc etc). Or where it isn't seen as that big an issue (lots of people might think its all ridiculous and make cruel jokes about trans people or even carry out genuine discrimination etc but not actually be that fussed about legislation changes because its a side issue for them. And of course the much simpler explanation that the people drafting changes to these laws don't seem to care particularly whether they represent public opinion, or what people actually voted for. Or its not reported.

What I'm saying is, its true this has definitely come from left wing/progressive parties more than the right. But I don't think being a socially conservative country gives immunity. For all that trans/queer rights is portrayed as being this great counter-cultural force its actually much less threatening to established views on sexuality/men's and women's roles and responsibilities than other civil rights issues. So its easier to ignore. But politics and humans are complicated.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 27/05/2024 08:54

OP I have to agree with those who say the UK is actually one of the best places on this issue. At least you are having the debates, and the media in the UK acknowledges (finally) that something is going on - so many other countries are pretending there is nothing to see here folks!
Also, if Self ID law is brought in, there will be huge public awareness about it and a likely public backlash.

Here in Ireland, Self ID was brought in by stealth a few years ago, and most people don't even know that it has happened. Our Equality laws also reference 'gender' rather than sex, which is so depressing. It will basically take years to row back on because our politicians and media won't admit there is an issue and don't care.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 27/05/2024 09:20

South Korea has robust laws on women's equality - but a deeply sexist society. There's currently a strong separatist feminist movement because of it and massive problems with things like digital voyeurism in changing rooms.

Similar in Japan, I think, although I'm not so sure about the legal situation there. Certainly in the 1990s they had a lot of regressive stuff still on the books, which got a bit of a push when the pill/viagra hypocrisy¹ drew attention to the problem.

¹ Japan had refused licencing to contraceptive pills for decades, on the grounds that any interference with the reproductive system was unnatural. Viagra was given the green light practically as the first box left the factory, because helping men have erections is good interference.

FindThatThing · 27/05/2024 09:42

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 08:38

Terf island or perhaps Israel are where we need to be.

Just gotta ignore the genocide they are commiting.

quantumbutterfly · 27/05/2024 10:40

On another thread there is an interesting debate concerning subjective interpretation of antisemitism informing the legal process. Someone has commented that the interpretation must be based on reality.

It has echoes of the back and forth discussions on here about hate crimes.

What a mockery this makes of our the law.

As pp's have said there's nowhere to run, all we can do is stand beside the people resisting the nonsense.

HelenaRavenclaw · 30/05/2024 03:47

Thank you all for your comments, this is an interesting discussion! May I request you not to derail the thread by posting about Israel/Palestine/other global events not directly related to gender ideology here - I'm just afraid MNHQ will delete this thread if it goes off topic. I do think those other issues are important to discuss, and I support everyone's right to freely talk about those in other suitable sections/threads. Thank you!

OP posts:
Sweden99 · 24/06/2024 18:40

Gagagardener · 25/05/2024 21:10

I ask from ignorance: are the Nordic countries (Finland, Iceland as well as Scandinavia) not better in this respect?

I think the feminism in Scandinavia would horrify many feminists and women in the UK.

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 18:45

In order to be a kind and respectful society you need to care about trans people too so I don’t think you will find a place that is progressive in women’s rights who are also transphobic. A progressive society rises everyone up.
sex offenders no matter what their gender identity need sorting out properly and locking up safely however that shouldn’t impact the rest of a progressive peaceful society

DoYouSmokePaul · 24/06/2024 18:46

The UK has JK Rowling. Therefore it is the best place to be gender critical, imo.

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