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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Countries that are truly liberal, safe, and not captured by gender ideology?

65 replies

HelenaRavenclaw · 25/05/2024 19:23

I just listened to Ted Cruz grilling a New York judge to ordered a trans-identifying male serial rapist to be transferred to a women's prison. It seems like there's nowhere we can get the best of both worlds, a place where men are not allowed to legally identify as women and invade women's safe spaces, and where society is progressive and safe for women. The most "progressive" places like California, New York, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, etc. are captured by gender ideology. England fares slightly better than Scotland, but with Labour likely to be at the helm soon I have little hope for improvement in this regard.

Places that don't pander to gender ideology are unsafe in other respects -- the deep south of America has widespread gun ownership and racism, the middle east's treatment of women is appalling, and so on. Without sacrificing quality of life and healthcare safety standards, is there any "first-world" democratic country, or region of such a country, that is truly good for women?

OP posts:
mach2 · 25/05/2024 23:42

I'm surprised that Pakistan allows self-ID

duc748 · 25/05/2024 23:46

Iran's the same, isn't it?

mach2 · 25/05/2024 23:47

Iran does it to trans away the gay. I guess Pakistan must be similar.

HelenaRavenclaw · 26/05/2024 02:07

mickybarrysmum · 25/05/2024 22:46

Hello do you have a link to the ted Cruz judge thing please

MUST WATCH: Chaos Erupts When Senator Cruz Calls Out Woke Biden Judge

Senator Cruz participates in Senate Judiciary hearing on 5.22.24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hveqyfAY9ug

OP posts:
Timeisstiking · 26/05/2024 07:28

If Labour were biological realists, I’d say England is the best place to be. Unfortunately with their (essentially) self ID policy and looming general election win, sadly not England anymore.

Florida?

Timeisstiking · 26/05/2024 07:48

mach2 · 25/05/2024 23:42

I'm surprised that Pakistan allows self-ID

Of course it does. Better to have a man ‘be a woman’ than a gay man (given homosexuality is illegal there).

Bet there aren’t many women identifying as men. Or if there are - I wonder if the men treat the ‘trans man’ as a man. 🤔 (*of course they don’t)

FrancescaContini · 26/05/2024 07:54

Given the countries listed here, we need a new definition of “liberal”: Sweden and Iran couldn’t be more dissimilar yet both allow men to “be women”. Neither care one jot for safeguarding women and children, clearly. At least we already knew this about Iran, but Sweden - ?

domineastronomy · 26/05/2024 07:54

England. And even a Labour government will not silence us.
We have the strongest women in this respect in the world. And the best lawyers.

FrancescaContini · 26/05/2024 07:59

Not called “TERF Island” for nothing 😉

EasternStandard · 26/05/2024 07:59

domineastronomy · 26/05/2024 07:54

England. And even a Labour government will not silence us.
We have the strongest women in this respect in the world. And the best lawyers.

I hope so. I think we’re strong, speak clearly and mn helps us talk about it together

The Cass review is a good example of post gender shift. It’s sensible and respected

We need more in that direction

Labour are concerning as some of their MPs are very tied to gender ideology and they created the issue with the GRA, which they’ll defend

But Scotland Isla Bryson spooked them a bit tg

Court cases are another good way, they tend to help by going our way

CroftonWillow · 26/05/2024 08:01

France and Italy don't seem too absorbed by it. Japan and Korea also.

teawamutu · 26/05/2024 08:21

fromorbit · 25/05/2024 22:54

We have to face the reality, that Terf Island is the best available option.

Yes women's rights are under attack, but we are the only country where there is enough support society wide that a fightback is happening, not from the right, but by a movement that unites left, centre and right. I genuinely think that long term the attempt to crush women's resistance in the UK is going to fail. It will take years to fight back, but we have an ever expanding network of people fighting for the rights of women and gay people .

Our side is getting stronger, despite setbacks. SEEN networks are being established in all branches of our society and are legally protected and are only going to grow and become more powerful.

Our Free Speech protection movement is gathering strength too.

Every day the sexist horrors of the gender movement are being more widely reported. People are not going to put up with it.

Obviously fighting against Labour is going to be difficult, but Scottish women already wrecked the SNP. Teaching Starmer a lesson is not going to be anymore difficult than taking on Sturgeon.

This election might not be decided on women's rights, but the election in 2028 will look very different.

I don't know why we are different, but I genuinely think it is something to do with deep embedded nature of our society and country. There was a reason that Mary Wollstonecraft came from the UK. There is a reason that we have Mumsnet. There is a reason Britannica has a trident.

For those who think we are going to be defeated, there is a key problem. We have BETTER LAWYERS. In a country based on hundreds of years of laws that matters.

Needed to read that this morning. Thank you!

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 08:37

They're all countries run by and for men.

The trans rights people care about are for trans identified men. They're the ones encroaching on women's rights and eroding women and children's safety. Does anyone care if a trans man (woman) enters a male space or sport? No because power imbalance.

We need a matriarchy.

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 08:38

Terf island or perhaps Israel are where we need to be.

FrancescaContini · 26/05/2024 08:54

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 08:38

Terf island or perhaps Israel are where we need to be.

I’d sooner stick pins in my eyes than live in Israel.

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 09:08

@FrancescaContini why? Have you been? It's a wonderful place. Amazing people, food, beaches, culture.

FrancescaContini · 26/05/2024 09:14

No desire to derail the thread @roarrfeckingroar but yes, delicious food from what I’ve been lucky enough to try.

PurpleAxe · 26/05/2024 09:17

There is nowhere to run. We have to stay and fight.

maudelovesharold · 26/05/2024 09:17

roarrfeckingroar · 26/05/2024 08:38

Terf island or perhaps Israel are where we need to be.

Unfortunately, in Israel too, there are many people who have a very blinkered view, when considering whose rights should be protected.

TheColourOutOfSpace · 26/05/2024 09:27

Every human society and culture will always have to grapple with balancing The Collective vs The Individual. There is plenty of good in both, but either extreme can be terrible.

I don't think we've quite got a handle on how to pragmatically balance both just yet.

The Collective is about family, duty, solidarity and so on. And it can be good for protecting women and children, preserving culture and tradition, fostering a sense of respect and loyalty to your country and your people.

However, too much adherence to The Collective will stifle The Individual. People suffer because their personal freedoms will always be disregarded in favour of the 'greater good'. How you dress, what you eat, who you marry, what choices are available to you etc are all controlled by religious institutions, parents and other 'elders' in society. This ends up hurting women and children because any abuse or suffering is ignored as long as The Collective remains in good standing.

The Individual is about self-actualisation - being able to pursue your personal dreams and desires, such as marrying someone of your choice, finding a career that interests and fulfills you, deciding whether you want to have children or not, dressing in a way that expresses your personal taste and so on.

However, too much adherence to The Individual will cause an atomisation of society. Every endeavour is about maximising personal freedom and choice and wealth, irrespective of how it impacts other people, especially women, children, elderly, poor etc. Any suggestion of even mildly curbing one's personal freedoms for the sake of The Collective is viewed as an egregious violation. The Individual must never be expected to sacrifice anything! The focus is always on freedoms and never about any responsibility.

Many Western democracies understood the failings of blind support for The Collective and western societies have improved by moving towards respect for The Individual.
Unfortunately, pendulums tend to swing from one extreme to the other, so for quite a few decades we have been indulging in blind fervour for The Individual.

The concept of 'human rights' has stopped being about people being persecuted or violently subjugated by the state, to things like rapists should be allowed to be in women's prisons because otherwise they are 'oppressed' and denied from being able to 'live their authentic life'.

The focus is exclusively on 'I should always be allowed to do whatever I want, however I want with no repercussions or restrictions.'
Issues like surrogacy are framed as wonderful expressions of individual fulfilment: 'I am entitled to children by whatever means possible.' instead of an attack on the collective: 'Women's bodies are being exploited, babies are treated as a commodity and their well-being is neglected by severing the mother-baby bond.'

If surrogacy is banned, a tiny proportion of individuals may be unable to easily purchase biological offspring at the expense of others. If we take a collective approach, this is unfortunate but acceptable, because women and children as a whole are ultimately not being devalued and exploited.
If we take an individual approach, this tiny proportion of people should be able to dictate and override any concerns because ultimately all that matters is their own personal fulfillment of their desires. Individuals should never be expected to face any denial of their wishes.

And this is where the heart of the tension lies: being denied from fulfilling any of our personal wishes is a horrible way to live, but should we expect to always have our personal wishes fulfilled?

And what happens when two different individual wishes clash? If a woman deeply wishes for a single-sex space or service to feel secure, and a man wishes to insert himself in that space or service because it makes him happy - what then?

People who favour The Individual will want to prioritise the man's happiness over the woman's sense of safety, especially if the man claims an 'oppressed minority' status. Because as I mentioned above, 'oppression' today in Western society is not about violent subjugation but the denial of personal desire.

Instead of blind, wholesale allegiance to The Individual or The Collective, we need to move towards a nuanced evaluation of issues and determining the threshold at which individual freedoms may be curbed for collective safeguarding and vice versa.

Some people are slowly starting to think about this. I haven't read her book yet, but I believe Mary Harrington deals with aspects of this in 'Feminism Against Progress'.

FrancescaContini · 26/05/2024 09:31

Really interesting post @TheColourOutOfSpace Thank you.

sereno · 26/05/2024 09:33

CroftonWillow · 26/05/2024 08:01

France and Italy don't seem too absorbed by it. Japan and Korea also.

Edited

I think Italy is a few years behind everyone else but it is making headway here. My local sports club implemented a TWAW policy which meant that a 50 year old TW could use the (open) showers with teenage girls. Not surprisingly, they objected and have stopped showering at the club. Most people still seem really unaware of what is going on though.

MyOleMan · 26/05/2024 09:39

The culture in france, Italy, Greece, are all much better in reality than TERF island. The uk has good laws but the lgbtq culture is deeply ingrained in a way that it isn’t in other countries. Eg there are 10 kids in total on puberty blockers within the health service in Ireland, UK has roughly six times bigger population, so the equivalent would be roughly 60 kids on puberty blockers. In reality it’s much much more

MyOleMan · 26/05/2024 09:42

Costa Rica and Panama are also good. Georgia maybe?

biddyboo · 26/05/2024 09:53

Badgertime · 25/05/2024 22:13

I worked in SE Asia (SK) in the 2000s and back then it was pretty conservative. Very safe though for women and kids and well developed.
I'd imagine Japan was similar.

I don't know how much it has changed now.

There was a lot of racism though and disability prejudice. I wouldn't go back now unless I knew that had changed.

Doesn't South Korea have terrible problems with misogyny though? Women getting attacked and harassed if they are thought to be feminists. And I think women under a lot of pressure to look a certain way and have cosmetic procedures. And Japan is very patriarchal as well.