Incorrect guidance on single-sex spaces and gender self-identification - gov.uk asking for examples

[RandySavage]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/call-for-input-incorrect-guidance-on-single-sex-spaces-and-gender-self-identification

Apparently this has not been well publicised - I cannot think why not.

This seems like a great opportunity for the marvellous GC Mumsnetters to have their voices heard. I don't believe there is anyone in the UK better informed on this subject than a reader of the Feminism: Sex and Gender board

See attached doc re Building regs

After consultation the Government changed their guidance on new buildings toilet provision. July 2022
However
Note the ‘get out clause’

Unisex where space allows

I believe there should be no ‘get out clause’ as it’s just an excuse for developers not to bother.
I have posted this on the consultation you have posted OP

So a warning to other MNs whatever you send in to this consultation I would be tempted to ask for no ‘get out clauses’

National Education Union suggests having no single sex sport. I can't imagine many schools are following this at secondary level:

https://neu.org.uk/advice/equality/lgbt-equality/supporting-trans-and-gender-questioning-students

Sounds like a health and safety disaster just waiting to happen re : rugby

I wouldn't interpret that page in that way - the only mention specifically of sport is no Girls vs Boys games or competitions. I'm fine with that, not because a not-out trans young person would be unhappy, but because it's lazy, often puts one side at an inherent disadvantage and emphasises the sex based differences where it is not relevant (such as in an academic competition).

My organisation has a policy exactly like this. It's awful. I saw a male at my workplace a few weeks ago. He was easily 6 foot, stubbled, wearing a padded bra under a tight t-shirt and a leopard print skirt split to the thigh.

This is the reality of working for a Stonewall champion.

Yes, but what I would like to see is Kemi unequivocally letting shops/gyms know they can absolutely exclude transwomen, no fuss, no bother, no reprisals.

And once they understand that (and I don't know if this is Kemi's remit), but shops need to understand that if they do allow men in any women's spaces, they have to tell their customers that's what's happening.

It's one thing to choose to take the easy route and not make a fuss, by making everything unisex, it's quite another telling your female customers that's what you're doing, and they have to put up with it.

Or not...

it's university guidance from two universities that sashh posted Today at 09:57

And other people appear to have found it elsewhere, too. It looks like a cut and paste.

@naanaa

Universities of:

Bristol
Staffordshire
Leicester
Keele
UCL
London school of hygiene and tropical medicine
London
Liverpool John Moores

Probably some I can't remember.

Also a couple of NHS trusts and a council's advice to primary schools.

I've found the source, it was government advice but has been withdrawn. Originally from Government Equalities Office (GEO).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recruiting-and-retaining-transgender-staff-a-guide-for-employers

Does anyone agree with the NEU guidance on toilets and changing rooms? It seems very much about the trans persons comfort and no one else. They say that ‘not all trans students will immediately want to use the toilets/changing rooms that match their GI…’ but these facilities are not based on someone’s gender identity. https://neu.org.uk/advice/equality/lgbt-equality/supporting-trans-and-gender-questioning-students

Sashh- I’d like to add girl guiding’s woeful position (am a volunteer) but it’s such a woolly mess, it’s hard to unpick. Did they ever tell us where they got their advice?

I don't thinks so but it does have a stonewall smell to it.

If you google girlguiding and then look at their trans policy it is very clear they are a single gender organisation.

If you google girlguiding and then look at their trans policy it is very clear they are a single gender organisation.

From what I've read they are not even "single gender" because they welcome NB and trans boys. They are mixed-sex and mixed-gender but then pretend otherwise.

Girlguiding promotes an inclusive and safe environment where all girls and young women, including trans girls and young women, should feel accepted. Non-binary people assigned female at birth and trans boys as new young members based on their sex should also feel welcome.

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

British Gymnastics

The Equality Act requires that trans people are treated as belonging to the sex in which they present (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with) unless there is evidence that they have an unfair advantage, or there is a risk to the safety of other participants which may apply in some close contact sports

Also British Gymnastics

We have no evidence to suggest that trans participants present a safeguarding risk to other participants. The use of gendered toilets and changing facilities can be a source of considerable anxiety for trans young people, who are often particularly vulnerable to bullying and abuse by their peers. It is highly unlikely that a participant who is not trans would claim that they identify as female simply to access the girl’s changing facilities or toilets. We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities and would identify the later scenario correctly as a child protection issue that should be reported without delay. We do not believe that our trans inclusion guidance compromises the welfare of girls.

We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities

Tell me you know nothing about safeguarding.... Fuckwits.

Manchester uni engineering block - the unsafest unisex toilet set up I saw in all of the uni visits. Googled and saw that a group of trans activist students had campaigned for unisex toilets. Basically men wanting to exclude women from whilst they play at being women.

It would seem to be a much more, “yes let’s jump in and help you to complete your transition” rather than the current 2023 Govt. Guidance which is a much more measured approach. I have two children who teach and they both say that there needs to be official guidance, which has a less open approach so that all teachers know what the law says and there’s less ambiguity which could be open to abuse.

It may well be highly unlikely that a male would claim to be female simply for the purposes of gaining entry to female changing rooms, but that doesn’t mean it’s an impossibility. If it’s accessible, it’s possible.
And I’d argue that there is evidence, that trans women do pose a threat to females. As is often the case the people making these statements, are by and large, are not the women who will be left vulnerable in the “well we don’t think it’s a problem brigade”, scenario.

What further amazes me is that it’s girls who are told if they’re not happy, they can make other arrangements!!!! God forbid you ask the transgender person to do that instead.

I love the answer Riley Gaines gave when it was suggested she should be kind. Paraphrasing.

"What is kind about telling women and girls to undress in front of a biological male?"

This is the same for Exeter Uni.
Including this notion that you cannot question someone in the facilities.
They also state no trans person should be expected to use the unisex disabled toilets as they are not disabled. However disabled toilets are simply accessible toilets and are for everyone to use so this, by Exeter, is a misunderstanding of Building Regs aswell.

They are Very mixed up !

[However, they now have a huge ‘get out clause’ stating any new buildings will have separate unisex toilets as well ie in accordance with updated Bregs. ]
Im not convinced that’s enough, surely they can be expected to upgrade existing provision. If it’s not forced the only buildings that ever give us safety will be newly built ones.

I think that is worth mentioning !!!!!!!

If someone could explain how I link an article I will be able to fill out the Govn form.
Please

I think for ages many GC people have made the argument “it’s not genuine tw we are worried about it’s bad men taking advantage of the situation”. I imagine this is done in an attempt to avoid backlash and also to maintain a position of kindness but it just has the effect of confusing the issue and suggesting that the subset of men who ID as women are somehow less of a risk to women than other men.

@Kandalama if you go to the first post on this thread and press the link it takes you to a page where if you scroll down there is a section on ‘how to respond’. This then takes you page by page through a series of questions (most are just buttons to press). If you save a link to the page where the advice you think is wrong it asks you to post this in a box with a few words on why. Takes a couple of minutes (if that) and no personal info is required. Hope that helps.

One thing I'd like to see the back of in all documentation is this ridiculous 'AFAB' rubbish. It's unscientific trash, and has no place in any policy document. Just a relic of Stonewallspeak.