JK Rowling on Billy Bragg and other progressive male class warriors

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JKR uses Billy Bragg's quote: “My problem with people like Rowling, like Julie Bindel, is really who they are lined up with” to address the misogyny of many brogressive men:

Over the last few years, a huge number of PMCWs have become men’s rights activists in all but name, and it’s been profoundly depressing, if not entirely unexpected, to see how enjoyable they’ve found it. Even while attacking women for finding themselves on the same side as right-wingers, the PMCWs stampeded to join the team that was threatening women with rape and violence, harassing women’s conferences, attempting to block access to gender critical events and physically assaulting female demonstrators.

It's a powerful essay.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

@EdithStourton

I'd love to know, @NefertitiV, just how you learned to engage in such an arse-about-face, bad faith manner.

I'd say it's you that's engaging in bad faith here. I simply echoed your own words back at you and you didn't like it. Not only that, you pulled out an 'abusive husband' analogy, and that's offensive.

Pompous Male Class Wanker also works

Why do these things have to be defined as "right" or "left"? Surely if an issue concerns us it's an issue to be discussed. Pinning it down to right or left immediately robs it of relevance to those on "the other side" who then adopt the opposing view as a matter of course. And they're all the same no matter what political tribe they belong to. Who remembers Gordon Brown's efforts to get Tories to join him to discuss matters of national importance? They were apoplectic with fury at the very suggestion. He also said that we must invest in Africa because if we didn't, Europe would be subject to waves of people seeking asylum and employment. Who listened?

So to sex and gender. Why do we have to be defined by our sex or gender which is only a part of who we are. Yes it's good that the request to live and let live is being broadcast, but it shouldn't ever have become a political issue to beat "the other side" with, or a bandwagon for unscrupulous politicians to climb on. There are more important things to address.

Mindless definition is the bane of western culture in my opinion. It's lazy thinking. Thank goodness JKR is using her intelligence and is brave and articulate enough to put her views across.

Telling you you're turning right wing is a standard tactic on the left. I have to say, it can be very effective because a) it stings - silly but it does. b) There's a good chance it'll shut you up and c) even if it doesn't, it'll put you on the defensive and shift the conversation away from whatever point you were trying to make.

She really can, that's exactly what she did there isn't it. Love it 👏

It's also a useful tactic for the left because anyone can do it. You don't need any special knowledge or understanding; you don't need a script; you don't even need to have seen 'The Invasion of the Body Snatchers'. All you have to do is point and yell, 'Tory!'

The downside is, it avoids having to try and get a grasp of the issues, so no-one learns how to debate them properly. (There used to be some honourable exceptions but I'm not sure if that's still the case.) Sooner or later that bites them on the arse.

Soz cross post!

Spot on, @Floisme.

@NefertitiV
Feminism is not of the left or of the right. Political leanings influence what a woman considers a good solution, but that's it. The fundamentals cut across party lines.

It's the left wing (and centrist) feminists who deny, correctly, that they are right wing. Right wing feminists do not. They are not embarrassed about being right wing, as you think they should be. We're all feminists.

Misogyny does not have a party affiliation, either. EdithStourton's abusive relationship analogy is probably "offensive" to you because it hits home. But it is a fact that this indivdualistic, capitalist, misogynistic men's rights movement has been embraced by the "progressive" left, and is fuelled by a rich seam of misogyny in the left.

Many a time I've compared me and Labour to a sour relationship. For the last few years it's been like we've broken up but I'm still haunting him on FaceBook and clutching at a late birthday card as a sign he still loves me. More recently it's been more like when he asks for a reconciliation and you realise that you just possibly don't care any more.

If these useless poseurs were really Class Warriors we wouldn't be in this shit would we?

Lifestyle politics replaced class because we lost that struggle in the 80s. A shiny bauble to distract us from our complete failure to ' improve the material conditions of the working class '. Actually I was an early adopter. Mea culpa.

See, I don't see how that's the case? It's interesting how enthusiastically the Progressive Left have abandoned feminism and turned it into a dirty word, now the men dont have to pretend yo becfeminists anymore, the sigh of relief almost audible. How is protecting the rights of vulnerable women and children ' of the right?' If anything, it's a concern for the most vulnerable that is ' socialist'. Not wealthy celebrities saying TWAW when they know full well that the chances of their daughters ending up in a domestic abuse shelter, or on a Single sex ward with an intact male or be in prison with a male rapist or be working in a beauty salon and being forced to do a 'bikini wax' on a fully intact male for fear of losing their minimum wage job, or be hounded out of their careers and be unable to pay their mortgage is so vanishingly small as to not affect them in any way. They will all walk away whistling ' nothing to do with me' when this turns out to not be as popular as it once seemed. How is taking away the rights of half the population 'of the Left?

I completely agree with you!

This happened to the Dagenham women when they tried to campaign for equal pay. The male union leaders wouldn't support them to start with.

It also happened to Harriet Harman when she was campaigning for women's rights. She was often told by men to prioritise other things instead.

No, you didn't.
I said,
"And then when we read an article in the Mail, or have admiration for some of the policies or speeches of certain right-wing politicians, we get shouted at for giving succour to the right."

You decided I meant:
So you agree, then, that feminism is leaning to the right now? But apparently this is the fault of the left? When do feminists - women - take responsibility for their own actions?

Those two statements do not mean the same thing. It is perfectly possible to agree with, or even admire, aspects of a political platform, without also agreeing with some of the fundamental tenets of that political viewpoint. If you can't see that, you are totally mired in tribal thinking.

I can think that Victoria Atkins (I think that's her name) played an absolute blinder in the HofC the other day without turning into a Tory.

I also note that you have ignored my point that the Left have done this to themselves: they have driven thoughtful women away, but women somehow, in your world, have to 'take responsibility' for this. I'm baffled.

And would you like to explain why you found my abusive husband analogy 'offensive'? I'm genuinely interested.

@Snowypeaks

Misogyny does not have a party affiliation, either. EdithStourton's abusive relationship analogy is probably "offensive" to you because it hits home. But it is a fact that this indivdualistic, capitalist, misogynistic men's rights movement has been embraced by the "progressive" left, and is fuelled by a rich seam of misogyny in the left.

It's interesting you think that. Do you think misogyny exists in the right as well?

And no, the analogy was offensive because it was uncalled for and irrelevant.

And no, the analogy was offensive because it was uncalled for and irrelevant.
LOL.
Party allows Rosie Duffield to get metaphorically beaten up ('You bloody had it coming!').
Party wants to bring in self-ID and when women say, um, this could be dangerous, we're met with howls of 'BIGOT! NO DEBATE!' ('Shut up, you stupid cow! You think you're gonna get hurt? I don't fuckin' care!')

I used the analogy because I thought it was spot on.

FYI, I grew up in a home where my father used coercive control and occasionally physical violence (usually towards me not my mother, but that let him get at her). I know whereof I speak.

Of course there's misogyny on the right of politics. And I stand by what I said.

• about EdithStourton's analogy.

And no, the analogy was offensive because it was uncalled for and irrelevant.

The analogy is near-perfect.

@EdithStourton

And would you like to explain why you found my abusive husband analogy 'offensive'? I'm genuinely interested.

Additionally, I feel it is disingenuous to imply that women cannot ever take responsibility - or blamed - for anything, simply because they're women. When you applied the abusive husband analogy to my words, I found that offensive as women can take responsibility for their social and political actions.

In the situation of an abusive marriage, I would say that leaving and reporting the situation widely is the pinnacle of taking responsibility for your own safety and that of your children.

Yes, of course we can. I did not imply otherwise. I just made the point that in this instance, the blame isn't ours.

Women feel that the Left (and the centre) has abandoned them. It's not that we have changed our views. We've been forced out by political parties who have suddenly adopted an ideology which is deeply harmful to women.

I think women are to be applauded for not taking this shit.

You can find my analogy as offensive as you like. I still stand by it.

Edited for flow and to correct a typo.

Posted too soon... in the situation of a bad political decision I'd say that aligning yourself clearly with the welfare of women and girls, a historically oppressed group, as a sex-based class is of the left rather than the right, and it's a shame so many on the left have chosen to prioritise the capitalist-individualist wishes of men, along with the misogyny and homophobia included in that.

What extreme view is that?
You're the one claiming that feminism is leaning to the right. I disagree and am asking you why do you think that.

I think it's near perfect too, right down to when his friends start saying, 'If things were that bad, why didn't you leave before? Take some responsibility.'