JK Rowling on Billy Bragg and other progressive male class warriors

[AstonsStolenData]

JKR uses Billy Bragg's quote: “My problem with people like Rowling, like Julie Bindel, is really who they are lined up with” to address the misogyny of many brogressive men:

Over the last few years, a huge number of PMCWs have become men’s rights activists in all but name, and it’s been profoundly depressing, if not entirely unexpected, to see how enjoyable they’ve found it. Even while attacking women for finding themselves on the same side as right-wingers, the PMCWs stampeded to join the team that was threatening women with rape and violence, harassing women’s conferences, attempting to block access to gender critical events and physically assaulting female demonstrators.

It's a powerful essay.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

Why is everything the fault of the left, particularly when for the past 14 years, the Tories have been in office? Aren't the left politically toothless? They cannot influence policy or funding, apart from debate. How can they cause "serious harm to troubled young people, trample all over women's rights and seek to remove single-sex services from the most vulnerable"?

It's not just about who's in power at Westminster. What about local councils who do decide 'policy & funding'? What about local Labour groups? Unions? Universities? Groups & networks within other organisations? Activists & 'protestors'?

JKR is a hero, she has used her enormous fame and clout to defend human rights and helped shine a glaring, bright light on the mysogyny, homophobia and virtue signalling, especially on the left and from men. She's incredible, lots of other influential people could do worse than to take a page out her book! I hopes she writes a fantastic expose of identity politics and the bile directed at those speaking out.

One aspect of the issue of PMCW which imo permeates the left, is that they always want the issues to be simple - good v bad. They support "trans rights" because they imagine a meek old school HSTS and they don't want to grapple with the fact that allowing him in also allows in any other bloke who so fancies. Anyone pointing out the shades of grey is construed as working against them, rather than helping to construct a workable solution such as third spaces.

Tbh I've always been a bit dubious about PMCW commitment to class struggle as well. I come from a trades background and have raised the issue of the apprenticeships many times, only to be told by some sneering intellectual that men in the trades aren't really working class because they're self employed.

So: labour rights for strippers? Yay! Apprenticeships for WC boys? Too aspirational and little England for the PMCW.

She's amazing. Could've put her feet up, retired to an island and lived out her days in luxury but instead is fighting in the trenches. Fighting and leading with style.

What a woman.

I think there is some truth in this, however you want to take it. Partly it is just sexist attitudes, but there was also more of a view that the workers movement wasn't just about treating everyone the same, so much as making life managable for wc families.

It's long been less clear that going out to a ft job is a win for women in wc families. Unlike professional mc families, the wage the woman would get may not really cover much more than childcare and the costs associated with working. And for women in a "job" rather than a career, leaving their child at home to go out and work at that job that might not be all that satisfying. Even with two wages, families like that might not be able to afford extra help to make up for time spent working.

A better model for families like that can be the man in a good ft job, taking what overtime he can, while the woman manages childcare, picks up part time of casual work, or works in some kind of cottage industry, and makes it possible for her husband to get those extra hours and benefits.

That's why this period produced ideas like the mother's allowance, designed to protect women from husbands who were unreliable, and allow them to have some stable income of their own.

A lot is about the organizations doing the lobbying on these issues.

Yeah, this is somewhat what I was getting at. Gender ideology is part and parcel of their approach to to race politics, and I would argue also to feminism in many cases. It's all seen through the lens of identity politics.

They are vulnerable to GI because they accept the underlying ideas of id pol. It's not some kind of abberation.

@TempestTost - It's long been less clear that going out to a ft job is a win for women in wc families. Unlike professional mc families, the wage the woman would get may not really cover much more than childcare and the costs associated with working. And for women in a "job" rather than a career, leaving their child at home to go out and work at that job that might not be all that satisfying. Even with two wages, families like that might not be able to afford extra help to make up for time spent working.

I think one thing that has changed in the last fifty years or so is that it is far easier for women to leave unsatisfying or abusive marriages, and in that situation it is vital for women to have preserved their own earning potential regardless of whether they have children or not. I think one thing feminism has done for us is make us far more aware that we really matter as individuals and not just as support humans.

they’ll take shameless refuge in accusations that we, the women criticising the injustice and insanity of gender identity ideology, were enabling the far-right.
We've had these accusations on FWR threads recently: 'Ooooh, you mustn't like her, she's a baddie, she goes on GB News!' and similar.

If the fucking Left had done its fucking job, women would not have had to rely on the right-wing media to get the word out. And then when we read an article in the Mail, or have admiration for some of the policies or speeches of certain right-wing politicians, we get shouted at for giving succour to the right.

Well, boys, perhaps you should have seen that coming before you decided that women didn't matter.

And the right waved it through because they have always fundamentally believed that men are masculine and go out to work, and women are feminine and look after the home. So if a man is feminine he's a woman (obviously!).

As someone who left the right as a teenager because I didn't want to prioritise marriage over being able to look after myself, it was a shock to me when the left suddenly went every bit as regressive as the right I'd left. It's only been as it's become clear that the left was pissing women off that suddenly people like Brendan O'Neill and Douglas Murray suddenly saw any merit in Julie Bindle's many, many years of feminist campaigning.

Watching women's rights become "right coded" during all this has been quite the sight. I wonder how long it will last?

Tbh I see this as a failure of feminism to accommodate - or get society to accommodate - women's needs.

@EdithStourton

If the fucking Left had done its fucking job, women would not have had to rely on the right-wing media to get the word out. And then when we read an article in the Mail, or have admiration for some of the policies or speeches of certain right-wing politicians, we get shouted at for giving succour to the right.

Hmm. So you agree, then, that feminism is leaning to the right now? But apparently this is the fault of the left? When do feminists - women - take responsibility for their own actions?

So you agree, then, that feminism is leaning to the right now? But apparently this is the fault of the left? When do feminists - women - take responsibility for their own actions?

If a party makes it clear that they don't value/won't listen to and take seriously the voices of poor, disabled women of color and doesn't care about their concerns or safety, nor the safety of their children, just how progressive are they? I don't think valuing their voices makes me right wing. If you do, I think that says more about you than about me being right wing.

I think it somewhat does, actually. I'm not necessarily suggesting there's anything inherently wrong with that, but few people here don't seem to want to outright acknowledge that they are right-wing. Why is that?

How does me wanting the left to listen to poor, disabled women of color and take our concerns seriously indicate that I'm right wing? Please be specific about why you think that the right is more concerned and aligned with poor ppl, disabled ppl, POC, women, or children than the left and how that is progressive.

I think that's right, it is about male ego. But I don't believe for a nano-second that the right are bastions of support for women.

Noticing it in the left is more about our disappointment that they're not doing better. We'd like to think that because they ostensibly support a more equal society, that would include women. Unfortunately that's the catch: it doesn't.

Anyone who thinks JRM has our interests at heart though or even Rishi Sunak if it was a choice between his interests and ours is making a BIG mistake. It's just that Billy Bragg and his ilk have done a good job of pretending they care about women that it stings that bit more.

“it was a shock to me when the left suddenly went every bit as regressive as the right I'd left. It's only been as it's become clear that the left was pissing women off that suddenly people like Brendan O'Neill and Douglas Murray suddenly saw any merit in Julie Bindle's many, many years of feminist campaigning.”

That’s an interesting insight, Rayon

I think what's most annoying is that we expected better of the lefties. When they turned out to not give a shit about half the population because 'gender', well that was disappointing, wasn't it.

And the right waved it through because they have always fundamentally believed that men are masculine and go out to work, and women are feminine and look after the home.

I think it’s more nuanced, and less political than that. The political left has a traditionalist streak, but for different reasons than the right.

There is a difference between the hard Left andcthe centre left. Part of the problem is the attitude that everyone who doesn't agree with you is 'Right wing'. The Left and Right are spectrums. It's just the same as the Trumpists calling everyone communists or Rishi Sunak being called a socialist by some in his party. Its ridiculous.

I think @MoltenLasagne has it. As a young woman I bought completely into the simplistic dichotomy of Left=Good, Right=Bad.

When the Left does something like reduce women to a feeling in a male head and shows you their true beliefs about women while patronisingly informing you that you are a bigot by refusing to accept your place as costume, it comes as a shock. This is the good side!

And then you think about it a little more and talk to different people and discover that people who are on the right are not all card carrying, finger tapping, Mr Burnsesque villains. That also comes as a shock. This is the bad side!

This is what happened to me. I am now trying to unravel my bundle of beliefs and see which are mine and which I ended up carrying because I wanted to be a Good Person. From what I have read on here, I don't think I am the only one.

I came on to say similar.
The Tories blew the power of the left out to the sidelines, and even before then them (Blaire etc) you can hardly describe Blair-ism as "left".
Yet gender ideology has overwhelmed our entire society. Main reason being, the ideology fits very neatly with extreme capitalist, neo-liberal values.

The ideology has been pushed most hard by Northern America which hasn't had a sniff of a left wing government in anyone's living memory.

I get that it's a reaction to the left's accusations of being "in bed with the right wing" but she'd have more clout by pointing out how obviously right wing gender ideology actually is.

It would be great if you could engage without twisting my words.

The Left drove women to right-wing outlets. It doesn't mean that the women in question have stopped believing in a social safety net or maintaining the integrity of the NHS or that capitalism needs controls and so on.

The Left needs to wake up or it will find that some women have become so disaffected that they'll never trust the main left-wing parties again. Instead we're politically homeless. Fuck knows who I'll be voting for next time around.

This is the fault of the Left, not the women. To blame women here is perverse, like saying a woman has now 'deliberately made herself a single parent' because she walked away from her abusive husband and that she should 'take responsibility' for the break-up of the marriage. No, mate: the situation is the fault of the husband (the political party) who screamed abuse and refused to listen and put her in dangerous situations.

I'd love to know, @NefertitiV, just how you learned to engage in such an arse-about-face, bad faith manner.

@AstonsStolenData

How does me wanting the left to listen to poor, disabled women of color and take our concerns seriously indicate that I'm right wing?

You just wrote "If a party makes it clear that they don't value/won't listen to and take seriously the voices of poor, disabled women of color and doesn't care about their concerns or safety, nor the safety of their children, just how progressive are they? I don't think valuing their voices makes me right wing." I'd wonder what or who led you to this extreme view, and by extension, what party you think would listen. If - after 14 years - you believe that's the Tories, then yes, you're right-wing.

Please be specific about why you think that the right is more concerned and aligned with poor ppl, disabled ppl, POC, women, or children than the left and how that is progressive.

This brings in a number of other issues not aligned to the original question. I don't think the right is more aligned with those issues, anyway - they've just hopped onto a handy bandwagon with some of them given an election is looming.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

There is a difference between the hard Left andcthe centre left. Part of the problem is the attitude that everyone who doesn't agree with you is 'Right wing'. The Left and Right are spectrums. It's just the same as the Trumpists calling everyone communists or Rishi Sunak being called a socialist by some in his party. Its ridiculous.

Absolutely there are spectrums. However, I think a good deal of feminism has stepped over the centre into the right. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but the consistent denial is odd.