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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An open letter to Billy Bragg

46 replies

RoyalCorgi · 28/04/2024 12:54

Dear Billy

Over the past few years, I’ve been following your Twitter interventions on the topic of gender ideology, and in particular your clashes with feminists, with a combination of amusement and puzzlement. Can Billy Bragg really be that dim, I’ve asked myself? Well, today I read your interview in the Observer, and I’ve concluded that Yes, he really can.

Your main argument against feminists who object to gender ideology is “who they are lined up with.” In other words, it’s not the arguments they make that you object to, but the fact that the other people making similar arguments are nasty right-wing Americans. This is a position that even the averagely bright 10-year old would be able to identify as a logical fallacy. (Philosophers refer to it as the “guilt by association fallacy”, if you’re interested, which you’re probably not.)

The trouble with adopting the guilt by association fallacy is that you can quite easily find examples where it’s not very helpful. For example, in the 1970s, the Paedophile Information Exchange, which campaigned for the legalisation of sexual relationships between adults and children, gained a surprising amount of traction in left-wing circles, including the National Council for Civil Liberties and the Campaign for Homosexual Equality. There’s a picture you might have seen of protesters outside the organisation’s conference in Conway Hall in 1977. Many of the protesters were ordinary women, but a number of the men present were members of the National Front, which you don’t need me to remind you was the principal fascist political party in the 1970s.

Now, for a self-respecting left-winger, that presents quite a dilemma, doesn’t it? You’re either on the same side as the people wanting to legalise sex with children, or you’re on the same side as the fascists. From the perspective of 2024, neither looks palatable. The only solution – and you’re not going to like this – is to actually think about the issue and work out, from first principles, the right moral position. For someone like you, who isn’t used to thinking critically, it’s going to be a lot of hard work. I want to say that ultimately you’ll find it rewarding, but to be honest, I’m not sure that’s true. You are a tribal thinker, and finding yourself outside your tribe is uncomfortable.

People who are capable of thinking rationally, and have a basic grasp of morality, are able to understand, without too much effort, that sterilising vulnerable young people, encouraging them to remove body parts and putting them on a lifetime of harmful medication, is a bad thing. They also understand that allowing men to play in women’s sports, or putting violent rapists in women’s prisons, is a bad thing. The fact that you are not able to grasp this shows the degree to which tribal thinking has a hold on you, and how difficult it would be for you to abandon it.

Perhaps I could persuade you by pointing out that there are left-wingers on both sides of this debate? True, many on the left – much of the Labour Party, the SWP, the Greens – have thrown in their lot with the gender ideologues. But on the gender-sceptic side, you have people like Allison Bailey, a Black working-class lesbian with impeccable left-wing credentials, as well as Professor Jo Phoenix, a left-leaning criminologist (also a lesbian, of course), Julie Bindel, a longstanding socialist and campaigner against male violence, Selina Todd, a professor of working-class history, and very many others, not forgetting the organisation Woman’s Place UK, founded by a group of trade unionists and Labour Party members.

I suspect, however, you think that none of these really count. Why? Because they’re women, and you are, at heart, a misogynist. At this point I imagine you protesting: how can I be a misogynist? I don’t hate women. I’m married to a woman. I have friends who are women. I support women’s right to abortion and all sorts of other stuff like equal pay.

But misogyny isn’t just about hating women. In your case, you suffer from a failing common to lots of left-wing men: you just don’t think women or their opinions are important. You are not interested in anything women have to say, even when – or especially when – they are talking about their own rights. You concur, perhaps unconsciously, with the 14th rule of misogyny: “Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.”

If left-wing men spoke up for the gender-sceptical side, you might listen. But almost none have, which no doubt makes you feel even more certain that you’re right. In fact, the only time that men – heterosexual men at any rate – seem to see feminists’ viewpoint on this is when they have daughters. This enables them to grasp the idea that, if you allow any man to legally identify as a woman, and therefore use women’s spaces, the consequences are inevitably harmful. Perhaps if you had a daughter, you too would feel queasy at the thought of her being forced to share a changing room with a 6ft 3in, 18-stone, 45-year old hairy-bollocked bloke. But you only have a son, and seemingly lack the imagination or empathy to care about the safety of young women in the abstract.

I don’t think I have any hope of persuading you through an appeal to either reason or morality, because you are neither a rational thinker nor a moral one: your thinking is purely tribal. You are, however, a vain man, so instead, I will appeal to your vanity. And I will do this by asking a simple question: do you want to be on the right side of history, or the wrong one?

Let’s go back to what I said earlier about the Paedophile Information Exchange. All those left-wingers who cosied up to them don’t look so great now, do they? (Harriet Harman knows that the NCCL's affiliation with PIE will be in her obituary.) Whereas those who were brave enough to oppose them have been triumphantly vindicated. Or look at all those left-wing figures who lent their support to eugenics: George Bernard Shaw, Sidney and Beatrice Webb, Harold Laski, among others. Some modern socialists may try to gloss over their predecessors’ support for this dangerous ideology, later espoused so enthusiastically by the Nazis, but, well, it’s embarrassing, isn’t it?

And look: the tide is now turning on gender ideology. The Cass Review has seen a rapid volte-face performed by the Labour Party, the Scottish government and even Stonewall. A few die-hard extremists have attacked Cass, including, naturally, GenderGP and Mermaids. (Incidentally, I’d put money on Mermaids not still being here at the end of 2024.) You have chosen to throw in your lot with the extremists which, from where I’m standing, seems an unwise decision. At the moment you resemble a man stranded at sea desperately trying to swim to shore against an outgoing tide. The sad truth is that you are, very soon, going to find yourself on the wrong side of history, along with the eugenicists and the PIE supporters. And for a man of your vanity, I don’t think you’re going to find it a nice place to be.

So here’s the choice that faces you, Billy: stick with the half of your tribe that is stubbornly resisting the overwhelming scientific and moral arguments against gender ideology, or join the half that is performing a reverse ferret while pretending that this is what they thought all along.

In your position, I know what I’d do. But then, I’m much much cleverer than you.

Sincerely yours,

Corgi

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 28/04/2024 19:28

Excellent work, @RoyalCorgi

LindorDoubleChoc · 28/04/2024 21:00

It's quite brilliant (from my perspective) but would be better if you wanted to take general public opinion into consideration if the personal/sarcastic was taken out of it. Just because he then couldn't complain about an old Karen being bitter. Thoughts on Billy could be neutral, thoughts on what Billy said or did could go under the microscope.

You could well say "but I don't want to take Billy's feelings into account" and I agree entirely. You could say "I'm a feminist and I'm not interested in taking men's feelings into account because women are always told to do this first before they say anything" and I agree entirely.

However, this letter leaves a lot of room for attack back by BB when a more neutral tone would quash it.

Karensalright · 28/04/2024 21:19

Yes to your letter to the observer, yes do an edit, yes yes yes see what happens, we will all be ready!!!

Snowypeaks · 28/04/2024 22:25

I'm not sure I agree with taking the personal/sarcastic tone out of it, I think that is funny and gives the letter its power.
There's substance to the criticism.
The subject and the points made are similar to JKR's TwiX essay, though. You may want to look at that to see if you agree.

FlameoftheWest · 29/04/2024 01:01

@RoyalCorgi
Awesome summary. 👏👏👏

Unfortunately, I believe that poor Billy is a bit like Winnie the Poo in the brains department.

A deeply depressed “old school “ socialist 😟

duc748 · 29/04/2024 01:14

At one time, socialism was all about 'learning from history', from Marx onwards. Most of those who call themselves socialists these days don't seem capable of doing that.

FlakyPoet · 29/04/2024 05:09

I LOVE this! Brava OP!

This is absolutely fabulous.

I love the sarcastic tone. So funny. I couldn’t care less if others focus on that and lose the message. They will be the ones adrift at sea, with shameful obituaries when the time comes. It’s the perfect tactic to needle his vanity, because nothing else could ever get through his thick skull.

Brilliant OP.

RoyalCorgi · 29/04/2024 07:42

Thank you for your lovely comments, vipers. I don't really want to do anything with it - I have no desire to see it published in a newspaper and don't particularly mind if BB doesn't see it. I just wanted to get it off my chest and knew you lot would understand.

OP posts:
HoneyButterPopcorn · 29/04/2024 07:49

I believe he has a daughter although my suspicions as to his constant banging of this drum makes me wonder

Teddleshon · 29/04/2024 07:53

You are brilliant @RoyalCorgi

CantDealwithChristmas · 29/04/2024 07:59

Brilliantly composed and brilliantly argued, @RoyalCorgi ; thank you.

It also got me thinking about the idiocies of tribal politics. When I was a kid my grandmother used to say that when I grew up I should always vote Labour because 'Conservatives are for the rich people and Labour are for the people like us'. But my grandmother spent most of her life in a country where democracy was a very new and strange system and the vast majority of people voted tribally.

In my 20s I was a socialist (now very much not) and was shocked to find that both my parents had, at one point, voted for Thatcher's Tories. As they were a dinner lady and a car mechanic I thought this choice was inexplicable. Until they explained to me that Thatcher's right to buy policy had enabled them to buy their council house, thus building up a smidgen of generational wealth, from which I and my siblings will in due course benefit.

My point being: tribalism has no place or should have no place in a mature liberal democracy like we have in UK. The many working class people who voted Tory in the 80s did so not because they were facists or idiots (as progressives today like to claim) but because they thought the Tory manifesto would benefit them more than the Labour one. Whatever you think of that, it's their choice. That is what mature, sensible, smart voting looks like.

Tribalism is literally for idiots and for countries in which democracy is so immature or so controlled that people don't understand it yet. Billy Bragg, and all the other middle class tribalist, are especially culpable because they really should have the intellect and education to treat our democratic process with more respect, and to examine things from first principles, as you say.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 29/04/2024 08:16

I always find it amusing how Johnny Rotten turned out.

Noshowlomo · 29/04/2024 11:09

This is fantastic and needs to be everywhere for everyone to see

IcakethereforeIam · 29/04/2024 12:02

Julie Bindel has written an article in Unherd* about Mr Bragg. It's good but I prefer your letter @RoyalCorgi

  • there's a link in the other BB thread
SinnerBoy · 29/04/2024 16:37

RoyalCorgi

What an excellently witty and sardonic composition; you pulled no punches?

Would you mind if I posted it to the JKR - Bragg twitter spat?

RoyalCorgi · 29/04/2024 16:59

SinnerBoy · 29/04/2024 16:37

RoyalCorgi

What an excellently witty and sardonic composition; you pulled no punches?

Would you mind if I posted it to the JKR - Bragg twitter spat?

Not at all, SinnerBoy!

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 29/04/2024 17:13

I've done it as screenshots, rather than linking here to encourage an invasion of Penis Ladies.

https://twitter.com/dog85569/status/1784978917545193826

Igmum · 29/04/2024 17:37

Brilliant, brilliant letter Corgi, you have hit the nail on the head. Tribal thinking is a deeply human activity, it is so comfortable, so tempting, so easy but it can cause massive problems.

SomeonTookMyAnonymousUserName · 29/04/2024 18:17

@RoyalCorgi 👏👏👏

ArabellaScott · 29/04/2024 20:16

Fantastic, Corgi!

Agree with pps, though, you need to adopt a manly persona or BB is incapable of hearing your words.

Datun · 30/04/2024 00:19

Superb Corgi ! And I don't think he can refute any of that.

These men are finding them selves so totally on the wrong side of history, that their only recourse is to re-write their own.

And, unbelievable though it sounds, I bet he gives that a go.

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