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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The trans row that dragged pool into a legal minefield.

70 replies

ByTipsyGuide · 22/04/2024 16:41

The trans row that’s dragged pool into a legal minefieldSport was on an upward trajectory after fresh investment and TV deal but the dominance of trans player Harriet Haynes has led to boycotts and court battles.
The crisis consuming the once minor sport of pool was laid bare inside a Pontins Holiday Park in northeastern Wales in November. Lynne Pinches, 50, a popular veteran of the eightball circuit, had reached arguably the most prestigious national final of her career when she forfeited the match without hitting a shot in protest against her opponent. While Pinches departed the small arena to audible cheers, Harriet Haynes, 33, a transgender woman, watched on confused before collecting the Champion of Champions trophy.
The flashpoint had been months in the making as the threat of legal action left Ultimate Pool, the sport’s transformative new promoter, and its sanctioning body, the World Eightball Pool Federation (Wepf), in a bind of scientific and cultural barbed wire.
In August, amid Haynes’s continued success, it was announced that only competitors who were born women would be allowed to play in designated women’s events. “They went back on that decision in October because of the threat of legal action from Harriet,” claims Frankie Rogers, 49, another experienced competitor, who subsequently gathered the support of 30 players now threatening their own lawsuit against Ultimate Pool and Wepf over the U-turn.
Now, as the possibility of that six-figure court battle looms closer with no clear path out of the mess, Ultimate Pool could even reluctantly take the drastic measure of dissolving its women’s tours and operating with one open category.
“We’re caught between a rock and a hard place,” says Mark Quirk, who co-founded Ultimate Pool with the long-serving England pool captain Lee Kendall. “We’ve worked tirelessly to try and progress and highlight the women’s game and I think we’ve provided the biggest showcase for women’s cue sports ever. We’ve tried to do the right loving thing. What we haven’t been able to do is come to a clear-cut decision because it’s not clearly defined. That’s not our fault.”
In sports such as athletics, swimming and rugby, where a sex-based advantage is inarguable, restricting entry to women’s categories has been more straightforward. However, the uncertainty of whether an exception to the Equality Act 2010 — which protects certain groups in the UK from being discriminated against unless there is an inherent competitive imbalance or danger to physical safety — can be applied to pool has become a legal minefield.
Ultimate Pool and Wepf, the latter of which is run almost entirely by volunteers, are stranded in the middle of the vociferous row. “We’re in a situation now where we’ve got individuals [at the Wepf] who are non-commercial being threatened personally and having potential liability,” says Quirk. “And I’d be resentful about financing a court case that could cost over £100,000 to defend something that is ambiguous. Nor should I have to if I’m coming along and improving the game. We’ve invested time, money and effort into making a sport that was completely failing and nobody was bothered about and brought it to a new level, and we’re being persecuted for it.”
British eightball pool was in disarray before Quirk, an Essex-based entrepreneur, and Kendall combined forces in 2020 to try to replicate Barry Hearn’s revolution of darts and snooker. Before Ultimate Pool’s launch, prominent televised events were played for prize pots that often only crept into four figures in rundown corners of the country. Now the Ultimate Pool Champions League is broadcast on TNT Sports in the UK, while the Pro Series, which comprises ten knockout tournaments, has a total prize fund of £260,000. Like most traditional pub sports, elite pool is dominated by men but the formation of a Women’s Pro Series and Challenger Series guaranteed 128 players a platform to compete for substantially more prize money (£75,000 collectively) than was previously available.
“What they have done for women’s pool over the last few years has been absolutely fantastic,” says Rogers, who is ranked 16th in the second-tier Challenger Series. “That is definitely something I can say in Ultimate Pool’s favour.”
But the earliest indication that a well-intentioned plan could result in such a legal quagmire arose almost immediately. Haynes, who transitioned at 23 years old and has enjoyed success in both pool and snooker as a female competitor, won the inaugural women’s event in March 2022. In a press release afterwards titled “Hooray, Harriet”, Ultimate Pool wrote that Haynes “can lay claim to being the best women’s player on the planet right now”.
She continued much in that same vein, winning another event and ending the year top of the women’s rankings, but complaints about a perceived uneven playing field began to gather momentum. “There was this silence because nobody wants to be labelled as transphobic, but I think the majority of players know it is gender-affected,” Rogers says. “Even if it’s only one woman that is displaced by a trans woman, it’s wrong.”
There are obvious areas that could give a man a natural advantage in pool, such as height allowing greater reach across the table and increased stability over shots, but most of the points disputed are far more nuanced. For instance, the break is the single most important shot in a frame, with a successful one scattering the balls widely and affording a player the chance to clear the table in one visit. The claimants say that because men are stronger they can generate greater speed with the cueball and break more effectively. However, the optimal velocity at which to hit the ball while breaking is easily reached by women. Similar debates apply to grip strength and ideal hand size when forming the bridge that supports the cue on every shot. Then there are societal factors, such as the fact pubs and pool halls are overwhelmingly male-dominated environments, meaning fewer women pick up the sport from a young age.
Rogers was “quite emotional” after Ultimate Pool and Wepf announced last August that its women’s tournaments would be restricted to people who were born female from the start of 2024. “I don’t think I realised quite how impacted I would be by that statement,” she says. But the climbdown occurred less than two months later after Haynes instructed a lawyer to fight the ruling.
“While it is true that legal proceedings were threatened, that is too simplistic and requires a deeper consideration,” a statement endorsed by Haynes in November read before stressing that “there is no scientific evidence to prove that being trans is an advantage in cue sports”.
“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”
The reversal prompted outcry among fellow players, with more than 60 women joining a WhatsApp group to plan how to fight their corner. “Have I got sympathy [for Ultimate Pool and Wept]? I’d say no,” Rogers says. “I think it was a knee-jerk reaction. They should have done more research rather than going, ‘Gosh, we’ve got a threat of legal action.’ That’s caving.”
Pinches, who said she had been reduced to tears by the announcement, forfeited her match against Haynes a few weeks later. “Walking out was the toughest thing I’ve ever had to do in the game,” she said at the time. “I’ve never conceded so much as a frame, never mind a match. This was only my fourth final, but the trophy or money meant nothing without fairness.”
The protest was picked up in the media and resulted in Haynes receiving what she described as “a cesspool of awfulness” and “vile abuse [on social media]”.
In December, 30 players, including Pinches, launched a crowdfunding campaign to cover their legal fees and have raised more than £20,000. They have also continued forfeiting matches in protest, with seven players having now conceded against Haynes, who is currently leading the Ultimate Pool rankings for 2024 and won the third Women’s Pro Series event of the season earlier this month.
Quirk stresses that he is impartial in the debate. However, he is concerned by the human cost on Haynes. “Harriet is not participating because she is trying to cause harm,” he says. “It’s not her fault the law is the way it is and that she stood up for herself. And it’s not the ladies’ fault they feel the way they do either. But I’m worried it feels like bullying. You’ve got a person here who is being publicly ostracised. Some of the things I’ve seen on social media have made my skin crawl.”
Pinches has endured her own backlash from the transgender community and has largely withdrawn from competition, while Rogers admits that she was “an emotional wreck” when playing earlier this season amid fears of public reprisal.
The impasse could merely be the prelude to a bigger crisis if the women act upon their threat to sue. Quirk is desperate not to scrap the women’s tours, but fears he may have little alternative to avoid legal fees. “Going to court would leave us having to examine all possibilities,” he says.
Rogers and her fellow claimants are acutely aware of the “enormous risk” of a complete shutdown, but feel a duty to “protect the integrity of all of our categories for future generations”.
Perhaps the only resolution that can prevent a court battle is if the parties commission experts to determine with greater clarity if there is a sex-based advantage in pool and both sides agree to follow its guidance, but that in itself is a lengthy and expensive process.
Until then, an innocuous sport given its belated rebirth and a business slowly en route to profitability remains an unexpected battleground. “We’re trying to take the sport on a journey,” says Quirk. “But it’s becoming a very hard road.”

Pool player forfeits final rather than play trans woman

A female pool player was cheered by the crowd after she forfeited the final of a national tournament in protest at having to play a transgender woman.Lynne Pinc

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pool-player-forfeits-final-rather-than-play-trans-woman-r9hlqdqt7

OP posts:
NoCloudsAllowed · 22/04/2024 16:42

Cba reading all that

Citrusandginger · 22/04/2024 16:47

I agree that's a long article, but surely women are not only disadvantaged by male physicality?

What about female socialisation? What about religious and cultural reasons for seeking women only sports leagues?

I'm afraid I'm struggling to see the legal argument as to why women's sport has to include non-women.

SirChenjins · 22/04/2024 16:51

I gave up reading it too, but surely it’s not that difficult to have a male, female and open category. Men who want to compete as women and vice versa can participate in the latter (and stop cheating to win). The Times also needs to stop mis-sexing people, it’s getting fucking ridiculous now.

GrumpyPanda · 22/04/2024 17:00

Citrusandginger · 22/04/2024 16:47

I agree that's a long article, but surely women are not only disadvantaged by male physicality?

What about female socialisation? What about religious and cultural reasons for seeking women only sports leagues?

I'm afraid I'm struggling to see the legal argument as to why women's sport has to include non-women.

Well quite.

And ultimately - either men have a physical or other advantage. In which case there's no justification for males on women's sports. Or there is no advantage, in which case there'd no justification for males in women's sports because it should just be a single category anyhow.

As far as "men's, women's and open" goes to the best of my knowledge none of the cue sports even have a men's category. It's women's and open.

PineappleTime · 22/04/2024 17:04

I can't express how much I despise people who bully their way into competitions for groups they don't belong to, groups of people with fewer advantages than they do. It's despicable.

FeckOffAstonUniversityDoxingDepartment · 22/04/2024 17:08

‘Trans’ may not be an advantage in pool but ‘male’ clearly is.

I am struck by the thought that perhaps it’s unsurprising that pool, a working class coded sport, has become a flash point for the female fight back?

Queer Theory hasn’t managed to get it’s feet under the table in blue collar households (although it’s had a bloody good try via captured social workers/ITV ‘Be Kind’ programming and newly qualified teachers).

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/04/2024 17:16

This is pretty buried in there but key as far as I can see (in terms of the attitudes to understanding the disadvantages of women in a male dominated sport/world). Its not just about the physicality, its about the opportunity.

'“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”'

Hm. How many women can devote themselves singlemindedly to a hobby that requires a pool table to be installed in the home? Having no family/caring responsibilities must help with travelling the country. Giving 20+ hours a week to a hobby must be easier. But nothing to do with gender (by which I assume they mean sex-based difference). Nope.

lechiffre55 · 22/04/2024 17:17

Why does there need to be proof of a male advantage?
Can females not organise for no other reason than they want to compete against other females?

Is there a single example of where females said "we'd like to play against other females" that a male trying to join said "ahhh ok then, I'll let you females get on with it then". A single example in any sport will do.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 17:22

Before Ultimate Pool’s launch, prominent televised events were played for prize pots that often only crept into four figures in rundown corners of the country. Now the Ultimate Pool Champions League is broadcast on TNT Sports in the UK, while the Pro Series, which comprises ten knockout tournaments, has a total prize fund of £260,000. Like most traditional pub sports, elite pool is dominated by men but the formation of a Women’s Pro Series and Challenger Series guaranteed 128 players a platform to compete for substantially more prize money (£75,000 collectively) than was previously available.
Explains Harriet's interest.

“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued.
No-one's saying that. Harriet's success is due to being a man. Why do you think men have better results than women?

“It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”
So...those lazy bastard women can't be arsed to train? Is that what you're saying? Those tightwads spend money on their kids and not just on themselves, is that it?

If women-only chess competition is lawful, which it is, then women-only pool competitions are lawful. The Positive Action exception would cover this even if the general sport exemption didn't. Get better lawyers, Mr Quirk.

You don't have to "the right loving thing", Mr Quirk. Do the fair thing. Do right by women.
Would you feel right if all the women's tour was all men as well as the men's tour? Because that is what will happen.

Good luck, Lynne Pinches. You are an absolute hero for standing up for yourself and for fairness.

LizziesTwin · 22/04/2024 17:28

I thought that article was dreadful. The journalist did not seem to have any understanding of how different men and women are and the obstacles to women succeeding in a sport such as pool. Another man telling women that our feelings and rights to take part in things don’t matter.

JellySaurus · 22/04/2024 17:34

LizziesTwin · 22/04/2024 17:28

I thought that article was dreadful. The journalist did not seem to have any understanding of how different men and women are and the obstacles to women succeeding in a sport such as pool. Another man telling women that our feelings and rights to take part in things don’t matter.

^I think the majority of players know it is gender-affected,” Rogers says. “Even if it’s only one woman that is displaced by a trans woman, it’s wrong.”
There are obvious areas that could give a man a natural advantage in pool, such as height allowing greater reach across the table and increased stability over shots, but most of the points disputed are far more nuanced. For instance, the break is the single most important shot in a frame, with a successful one scattering the balls widely and affording a player the chance to clear the table in one visit. The claimants say that because men are stronger they can generate greater speed with the cueball and break more effectively. However, the optimal velocity at which to hit the ball while breaking is easily reached by women. Similar debates apply to grip strength and ideal hand size when forming the bridge that supports the cue on every shot. Then there are societal factors, such as the fact pubs and pool halls are overwhelmingly male-dominated environments, meaning fewer women pick up the sport from a young age.^

Have you read the same article? Seemed quite balanced to me: facts explaining the problems around inserting a male into the women's game, and the male's response of feelz and implying that women don't try hard enough.

Cauliflowery · 22/04/2024 17:42

Imagine being a teenager interested in playing pool. Maybe at the youth club, maybe at the pub or social club you go to with your parents.

Pool tables are dominated by men. They stack their coins on the side and wait their turn watching. Winner stays on. How confident do you have to be as a teenage girl (eg how miraculously free of male caused trauma in your life so far) to feel able to bend over a table in this environment?

Men don't understand because they don't fucking ask. They don't routinely imagine themselves in our position. Not even if they claim to be us, sadly.

JennyForeigner · 22/04/2024 17:59

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/04/2024 17:16

This is pretty buried in there but key as far as I can see (in terms of the attitudes to understanding the disadvantages of women in a male dominated sport/world). Its not just about the physicality, its about the opportunity.

'“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”'

Hm. How many women can devote themselves singlemindedly to a hobby that requires a pool table to be installed in the home? Having no family/caring responsibilities must help with travelling the country. Giving 20+ hours a week to a hobby must be easier. But nothing to do with gender (by which I assume they mean sex-based difference). Nope.

I don't know when a 'legal' argument has fucked me off more. So it's not about generations upon generations of patriarchy or male social dominance any more is it? The absence of female CEOs, treatment of female MPs, lack of female scientists, creators and gold medallists is all just... that women don't put the hours in? It's that women are just a bit... shit?

No wonder these fuckers see feminism as the enemy. They don't understand or comprehend anything about how equality is achieved.

TrainedByCatsToBeScathing · 22/04/2024 17:59

Well done Haynes, you may well be remembered as the male who killed women’s pool. Enter the male category if you think you’re championship material.

LizziesTwin · 22/04/2024 18:14

@JellySaurus yes I had read it, I’m a subscriber. Maybe I was too irritated by it all.

MrGHardy · 22/04/2024 18:17

"In sports such as athletics, swimming and rugby, where a sex-based advantage is inarguable, restricting entry to women’s categories has been more straightforward. However, the uncertainty of whether an exception to the Equality Act 2010 — which protects certain groups in the UK from being discriminated against unless there is an inherent competitive imbalance or danger to physical safety — can be applied to pool has become a legal minefield".

But who is being discriminated against? Transwomen aren't banned from playing pool. Like every other male they aren't allowed in the female category.

Not to mention, on what basis is there even a woman's game? Because women 'identify' differently and therefore must have a separate category? What hogwash.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/04/2024 20:58

I am very interested to read the OP statement after having already noted this thread about the approach in Women's Darts today. It seemed that in darts they took a very novel approach - they asked the women. Repeat. THEY ASKED THE WOMEN. (Did I understand that correctly?)

(I presume trans women were in that group, but the idea of asking the women affected by any decision seems almost unprecedented). Well done darts.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5059977-bullseye-england-darts-womens-darts-is-for-female-born-competitors

Bullseye - England Darts - Women's Darts is for female born competitors | Mumsnet

Great to see England Darts take a stand for women's sports and actually to listen to the players.The statement is a bit clunky in places, but the inte...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5059977-bullseye-england-darts-womens-darts-is-for-female-born-competitors

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 21:10

Whenever the governing body asks the athletes/participants, even if they ask men as well as women, they always get the same answer: No to males in the female category.

PatatiPatatras · 22/04/2024 21:25

One fox in a chicken coop...

so hurt by all the pecking from the chickens.
but rather ruin the game for all the chickens than admit a fox presence in a chicken coop is unwelcome no matter how docile the fox.

Truthlikeness · 22/04/2024 21:53

If you take both women and transwomen combined in the UK, TW make up 0.14% of that whole, i.e one in 714, which - all things being equal - should make it extremely rare to see a TW dominating in any given sport, and yet we seem to see it with perplexing regularity...

puffyisgood · 23/04/2024 13:15

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/04/2024 17:16

This is pretty buried in there but key as far as I can see (in terms of the attitudes to understanding the disadvantages of women in a male dominated sport/world). Its not just about the physicality, its about the opportunity.

'“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”'

Hm. How many women can devote themselves singlemindedly to a hobby that requires a pool table to be installed in the home? Having no family/caring responsibilities must help with travelling the country. Giving 20+ hours a week to a hobby must be easier. But nothing to do with gender (by which I assume they mean sex-based difference). Nope.

That's exactly right. Aged 50 Lynne Pinches has grown up children so when she was Ms Haynes' age [early 30s] she absolutely for definite practicing for 20 hours a week. Ms Haynes' ability to put the hours is has much more in common with top male cuesports players, e.g. Ronnie O'Sullivan had his first child in his early 20s, Stephen Hendry in his mid-late 20s, both were able to carry on practicing as hard & being as successful as ever, without a break, because, y'know, someone else [whose sex we can probably all take an informed guess at] did the parenting.

puffyisgood · 23/04/2024 13:16

sorry, when LP was in her early 30s she was almost certainly not practicing as hard, certainly not travelling as much, as HH at the same age.

Musomama1 · 23/04/2024 13:38

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/04/2024 17:16

This is pretty buried in there but key as far as I can see (in terms of the attitudes to understanding the disadvantages of women in a male dominated sport/world). Its not just about the physicality, its about the opportunity.

'“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”'

Hm. How many women can devote themselves singlemindedly to a hobby that requires a pool table to be installed in the home? Having no family/caring responsibilities must help with travelling the country. Giving 20+ hours a week to a hobby must be easier. But nothing to do with gender (by which I assume they mean sex-based difference). Nope.

Yes, this is absolutely true regarding barriers women face to practice, but I also think these competitive women DO practice, they find a way because the sport is their life, and I find that quote maddening.

In snooker there's examples of a number of fully professional young women who play snooker full time - they should be performing like the men - they play the main tournaments (on 'wild cards') and they get knocked out in the initial rounds.

What pool and snooker need to do is show the advantage, beyond refute with evidence. Plenty of papers on physical sport, not so much with cue games as it's niche.

PriOn1 · 23/04/2024 15:35

Quirk stresses that he is impartial in the debate. However, he is concerned by the human cost on Haynes. “Harriet is not participating because she is trying to cause harm,” he says. “It’s not her fault the law is the way it is and that she stood up for herself. And it’s not the ladies’ fault they feel the way they do either. But I’m worried it feels like bullying. You’ve got a person here who is being publicly ostracised. Some of the things I’ve seen on social media have made my skin crawl.”

Seeing men stealing money from women makes my skin crawl. Not impartial at all, is he? Terrible women, “bullying” the man that’s invaded, just as the prize money for women was finally worth it.