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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The trans row that dragged pool into a legal minefield.

70 replies

ByTipsyGuide · 22/04/2024 16:41

The trans row that’s dragged pool into a legal minefieldSport was on an upward trajectory after fresh investment and TV deal but the dominance of trans player Harriet Haynes has led to boycotts and court battles.
The crisis consuming the once minor sport of pool was laid bare inside a Pontins Holiday Park in northeastern Wales in November. Lynne Pinches, 50, a popular veteran of the eightball circuit, had reached arguably the most prestigious national final of her career when she forfeited the match without hitting a shot in protest against her opponent. While Pinches departed the small arena to audible cheers, Harriet Haynes, 33, a transgender woman, watched on confused before collecting the Champion of Champions trophy.
The flashpoint had been months in the making as the threat of legal action left Ultimate Pool, the sport’s transformative new promoter, and its sanctioning body, the World Eightball Pool Federation (Wepf), in a bind of scientific and cultural barbed wire.
In August, amid Haynes’s continued success, it was announced that only competitors who were born women would be allowed to play in designated women’s events. “They went back on that decision in October because of the threat of legal action from Harriet,” claims Frankie Rogers, 49, another experienced competitor, who subsequently gathered the support of 30 players now threatening their own lawsuit against Ultimate Pool and Wepf over the U-turn.
Now, as the possibility of that six-figure court battle looms closer with no clear path out of the mess, Ultimate Pool could even reluctantly take the drastic measure of dissolving its women’s tours and operating with one open category.
“We’re caught between a rock and a hard place,” says Mark Quirk, who co-founded Ultimate Pool with the long-serving England pool captain Lee Kendall. “We’ve worked tirelessly to try and progress and highlight the women’s game and I think we’ve provided the biggest showcase for women’s cue sports ever. We’ve tried to do the right loving thing. What we haven’t been able to do is come to a clear-cut decision because it’s not clearly defined. That’s not our fault.”
In sports such as athletics, swimming and rugby, where a sex-based advantage is inarguable, restricting entry to women’s categories has been more straightforward. However, the uncertainty of whether an exception to the Equality Act 2010 — which protects certain groups in the UK from being discriminated against unless there is an inherent competitive imbalance or danger to physical safety — can be applied to pool has become a legal minefield.
Ultimate Pool and Wepf, the latter of which is run almost entirely by volunteers, are stranded in the middle of the vociferous row. “We’re in a situation now where we’ve got individuals [at the Wepf] who are non-commercial being threatened personally and having potential liability,” says Quirk. “And I’d be resentful about financing a court case that could cost over £100,000 to defend something that is ambiguous. Nor should I have to if I’m coming along and improving the game. We’ve invested time, money and effort into making a sport that was completely failing and nobody was bothered about and brought it to a new level, and we’re being persecuted for it.”
British eightball pool was in disarray before Quirk, an Essex-based entrepreneur, and Kendall combined forces in 2020 to try to replicate Barry Hearn’s revolution of darts and snooker. Before Ultimate Pool’s launch, prominent televised events were played for prize pots that often only crept into four figures in rundown corners of the country. Now the Ultimate Pool Champions League is broadcast on TNT Sports in the UK, while the Pro Series, which comprises ten knockout tournaments, has a total prize fund of £260,000. Like most traditional pub sports, elite pool is dominated by men but the formation of a Women’s Pro Series and Challenger Series guaranteed 128 players a platform to compete for substantially more prize money (£75,000 collectively) than was previously available.
“What they have done for women’s pool over the last few years has been absolutely fantastic,” says Rogers, who is ranked 16th in the second-tier Challenger Series. “That is definitely something I can say in Ultimate Pool’s favour.”
But the earliest indication that a well-intentioned plan could result in such a legal quagmire arose almost immediately. Haynes, who transitioned at 23 years old and has enjoyed success in both pool and snooker as a female competitor, won the inaugural women’s event in March 2022. In a press release afterwards titled “Hooray, Harriet”, Ultimate Pool wrote that Haynes “can lay claim to being the best women’s player on the planet right now”.
She continued much in that same vein, winning another event and ending the year top of the women’s rankings, but complaints about a perceived uneven playing field began to gather momentum. “There was this silence because nobody wants to be labelled as transphobic, but I think the majority of players know it is gender-affected,” Rogers says. “Even if it’s only one woman that is displaced by a trans woman, it’s wrong.”
There are obvious areas that could give a man a natural advantage in pool, such as height allowing greater reach across the table and increased stability over shots, but most of the points disputed are far more nuanced. For instance, the break is the single most important shot in a frame, with a successful one scattering the balls widely and affording a player the chance to clear the table in one visit. The claimants say that because men are stronger they can generate greater speed with the cueball and break more effectively. However, the optimal velocity at which to hit the ball while breaking is easily reached by women. Similar debates apply to grip strength and ideal hand size when forming the bridge that supports the cue on every shot. Then there are societal factors, such as the fact pubs and pool halls are overwhelmingly male-dominated environments, meaning fewer women pick up the sport from a young age.
Rogers was “quite emotional” after Ultimate Pool and Wepf announced last August that its women’s tournaments would be restricted to people who were born female from the start of 2024. “I don’t think I realised quite how impacted I would be by that statement,” she says. But the climbdown occurred less than two months later after Haynes instructed a lawyer to fight the ruling.
“While it is true that legal proceedings were threatened, that is too simplistic and requires a deeper consideration,” a statement endorsed by Haynes in November read before stressing that “there is no scientific evidence to prove that being trans is an advantage in cue sports”.
“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”
The reversal prompted outcry among fellow players, with more than 60 women joining a WhatsApp group to plan how to fight their corner. “Have I got sympathy [for Ultimate Pool and Wept]? I’d say no,” Rogers says. “I think it was a knee-jerk reaction. They should have done more research rather than going, ‘Gosh, we’ve got a threat of legal action.’ That’s caving.”
Pinches, who said she had been reduced to tears by the announcement, forfeited her match against Haynes a few weeks later. “Walking out was the toughest thing I’ve ever had to do in the game,” she said at the time. “I’ve never conceded so much as a frame, never mind a match. This was only my fourth final, but the trophy or money meant nothing without fairness.”
The protest was picked up in the media and resulted in Haynes receiving what she described as “a cesspool of awfulness” and “vile abuse [on social media]”.
In December, 30 players, including Pinches, launched a crowdfunding campaign to cover their legal fees and have raised more than £20,000. They have also continued forfeiting matches in protest, with seven players having now conceded against Haynes, who is currently leading the Ultimate Pool rankings for 2024 and won the third Women’s Pro Series event of the season earlier this month.
Quirk stresses that he is impartial in the debate. However, he is concerned by the human cost on Haynes. “Harriet is not participating because she is trying to cause harm,” he says. “It’s not her fault the law is the way it is and that she stood up for herself. And it’s not the ladies’ fault they feel the way they do either. But I’m worried it feels like bullying. You’ve got a person here who is being publicly ostracised. Some of the things I’ve seen on social media have made my skin crawl.”
Pinches has endured her own backlash from the transgender community and has largely withdrawn from competition, while Rogers admits that she was “an emotional wreck” when playing earlier this season amid fears of public reprisal.
The impasse could merely be the prelude to a bigger crisis if the women act upon their threat to sue. Quirk is desperate not to scrap the women’s tours, but fears he may have little alternative to avoid legal fees. “Going to court would leave us having to examine all possibilities,” he says.
Rogers and her fellow claimants are acutely aware of the “enormous risk” of a complete shutdown, but feel a duty to “protect the integrity of all of our categories for future generations”.
Perhaps the only resolution that can prevent a court battle is if the parties commission experts to determine with greater clarity if there is a sex-based advantage in pool and both sides agree to follow its guidance, but that in itself is a lengthy and expensive process.
Until then, an innocuous sport given its belated rebirth and a business slowly en route to profitability remains an unexpected battleground. “We’re trying to take the sport on a journey,” says Quirk. “But it’s becoming a very hard road.”

Pool player forfeits final rather than play trans woman

A female pool player was cheered by the crowd after she forfeited the final of a national tournament in protest at having to play a transgender woman.Lynne Pinc

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pool-player-forfeits-final-rather-than-play-trans-woman-r9hlqdqt7

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/04/2024 16:01

Men are bullying women by shoving us out of the way to excel in the categories they can't excel in for their own sex. No one likes cheats. Quirk sounds like a misogynistic idiot. Calm down ladies!

SirChenjins · 23/04/2024 16:06

Interesting - but not surprising - that even after all that practising the only way he could win was to cheat his way through the women’s tournament. Go figure.

LogicLoverLlama · 23/04/2024 16:14

NoCloudsAllowed · 22/04/2024 16:42

Cba reading all that

ChatGPT says...
"The sport of pool faces a legal and ethical controversy due to the success of transgender player Harriet Haynes, leading to boycotts and potential court battles. Lynne Pinches forfeited a national final in protest against Haynes, who has been dominating women’s events. Ultimate Pool, facing legal threats, initially restricted women's events to cisgender women, only to reverse the decision under pressure. This has left the organization in a difficult position, considering dissolving women's tours to avoid escalating legal costs. The situation reflects broader challenges in defining gender categories in sports without clear physical advantages."

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2024 16:18

@Musomama1 'Yes, this is absolutely true regarding barriers women face to practice, but I also think these competitive women DO practice, they find a way because the sport is their life, and I find that quote maddening.

In snooker there's examples of a number of fully professional young women who play snooker full time - they should be performing like the men - they play the main tournaments (on 'wild cards') and they get knocked out in the initial rounds.'

I see what you mean about the quote being maddening. Of course the women who are attracted to this sport practice. Their commitment is not lacking. But for most women - especially when getting older - practice is a compromise unless you are very fortunate you cannot put everything (everyone) else on hold. Women have pregnancy, childcare and a host of other things to contend with and male players don't stop playing (and likely do not cut back much) when they start a family.

I am sure that there are physical disparities that affect fairness of mixing the sexes in this sport, but these are not as obvious as in some sports. The societal expectations of women are such that these affect the ability to practice and compete and travel on their own to tournaments. Those do not go away and are additional to any physical disadvantages.

Musomama1 · 23/04/2024 18:07

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2024 16:18

@Musomama1 'Yes, this is absolutely true regarding barriers women face to practice, but I also think these competitive women DO practice, they find a way because the sport is their life, and I find that quote maddening.

In snooker there's examples of a number of fully professional young women who play snooker full time - they should be performing like the men - they play the main tournaments (on 'wild cards') and they get knocked out in the initial rounds.'

I see what you mean about the quote being maddening. Of course the women who are attracted to this sport practice. Their commitment is not lacking. But for most women - especially when getting older - practice is a compromise unless you are very fortunate you cannot put everything (everyone) else on hold. Women have pregnancy, childcare and a host of other things to contend with and male players don't stop playing (and likely do not cut back much) when they start a family.

I am sure that there are physical disparities that affect fairness of mixing the sexes in this sport, but these are not as obvious as in some sports. The societal expectations of women are such that these affect the ability to practice and compete and travel on their own to tournaments. Those do not go away and are additional to any physical disadvantages.

It's a great explanation and I think this is used to explain how elite female cue players don't progress in the main (mixed) tournaments. Personally I think it's a positive spin as it doesn't focus on limitations of women physically in cue sports.

I just feel in my gut that there is a sexed based advantage and I know the female elites have said the same. I think there's the cue power / spatial awareness. There needs to be studies. Even if it's factual, we can see at the pro level this is enough for top male players to dominate.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2024 22:02

@LogicLoverLlama 'Ultimate Pool, facing legal threats, initially restricted women's events to cisgender women, only to reverse the decision under pressure.'

Intrigued by this ChatGPT summary. In every version I have read it sounded like there was FIRST pressure (from (cis)gender women and THEN a legal threat (more than a threat?) from Harriet.

The AI version makes it sounds as though the women threatened legal action which resulted in the ban which was not popular so then reversed.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2024 22:04

I am probably seeing parallels with chess here. I found when playing that when I had my own child or any other children playing in my vicinity my game went downhill. I was being aware of them and ready to help out. This was not something that afflicted any of the male players. At all. But mothers it definitely did affect.

Tontostitis · 24/04/2024 15:14

NoCloudsAllowed · 22/04/2024 16:42

Cba reading all that

Unnecessary and rude.

That was an interesting read. I think having to define exactly why males have advantages over females is a red herring. No men in women's sports. Not because physique, socialising, opportunities or anything else that just opens up arguments. Just because, as women have repeatedly said when asked, we want women only sports. Transwomen are men.

flyingbuttress43 · 24/04/2024 15:31

All the arguments about strength, height, reach, practice time etc. should be immaterial.

This is a women's competition. Trans women are men. There is no place for them in the female category. That should be the end of it. Will our pathetic politicians have the guts to abolish this stupid GRA? Will they buggery?

The more of this rubbish I read, the more I wonder if the trans ideology allies have all had frontal lobotomies. Speaking of which, this ideology is simply the 21st version of the labotomy. That was thought to be a good idea at the time as well.

PToosher · 24/04/2024 16:17

I'm a man, I play pool a bit and I watch a lot of pool on YouTube etc.
Setting aside the 'trans issue', the ability to break the balls with great power is a huge advantage.
It's very common to see players 'break and dish' where the player has a successful break and then pots all their balls in that same visit. If you can really smash the balls from the break so several go down, you are well on the way to winning the frame.

ByTipsyGuide · 28/11/2024 09:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/11/2024 09:12

@ByTipsyGuide I'm guessing you posted a link to either a crowdfunding site or an archive?

borntobequiet · 28/11/2024 09:15

SirChenjins · 23/04/2024 16:06

Interesting - but not surprising - that even after all that practising the only way he could win was to cheat his way through the women’s tournament. Go figure.

Ah well. He will have to find a way of cheating in an open category, if they do as they say.

Now, as the possibility of that six-figure court battle looms closer with no clear path out of the mess, Ultimate Pool could even reluctantly take the drastic measure of dissolving its women’s tours and operating with one open category.
“We’re caught between a rock and a hard place,” says Mark Quirk, who co-founded Ultimate Pool with the long-serving England pool captain Lee Kendall. “We’ve worked tirelessly to try and progress and highlight the women’s game and I think we’ve provided the biggest showcase for women’s cue sports ever. We’ve tried to do the right loving thing. What we haven’t been able to do is come to a clear-cut decision because it’s not clearly defined. That’s not our fault.”

Spineless and whinging.

ByTipsyGuide · 28/11/2024 09:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/11/2024 09:12

@ByTipsyGuide I'm guessing you posted a link to either a crowdfunding site or an archive?

Yes I did. Is that allowed?

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 28/11/2024 10:00

Archive links are sometimes allowed but not crowd funder ones. You can post enough clues that we could google the crowd funder.

SquirrelSoShiny · 28/11/2024 10:11

Cauliflowery · 22/04/2024 17:42

Imagine being a teenager interested in playing pool. Maybe at the youth club, maybe at the pub or social club you go to with your parents.

Pool tables are dominated by men. They stack their coins on the side and wait their turn watching. Winner stays on. How confident do you have to be as a teenage girl (eg how miraculously free of male caused trauma in your life so far) to feel able to bend over a table in this environment?

Men don't understand because they don't fucking ask. They don't routinely imagine themselves in our position. Not even if they claim to be us, sadly.

This. Honestly at this point any man inserting themselves in women's sport can go and do one. It makes me so angry that yet another narcissistic man has been able to do this. I will happily do some digging for this if necessary.

Hoardasurass · 28/11/2024 10:17

ByTipsyGuide · 28/11/2024 09:51

Yes I did. Is that allowed?

No it's not unfortunately but you can tell us the site and a name or frase to Google

Kirstyshine · 28/11/2024 10:30

I play pool, and darts, and am tall for a woman. I definitely perceive a male advantage eg in muscles not tiring so fast/consistency of performing. I have to try harder for a powerful break than my male opponents: it takes more out of me, so by the 6/7/8th time, I’m flagging, he’s not.

Hoppinggreen · 28/11/2024 10:33

Whether being male in a sport gives an advantage or not is the same as whether any man using female only facities is a perv
Doesn't matter, they shouldn't be there

ByTipsyGuide · 28/11/2024 11:31

Let Women Play Pool - Update
We issued our letter before action back in January 2024. The defendants did not accept our case. They did not even acknowledge that pool is a “gender-affected” sport. “Gender-affected” is the legal term used in the Equality Act which can be used to justify a protected category for female players.
The next step was for us to issue claims in both the County Court and the Employment Tribunal but prior to doing that there was a required period of arbitration through ACAS before we could proceed. This yielded no agreement.
The process acknowledged that further work was required to determine whether pool is gender-affected, and it was agreed that the two parties would commission an independent review with competent and suitable experts appointed to answer that key question. The defendants have accepted that if it is determined that pool is gender-affected, then the women’s category must be male-free. Solicitors for the two parties worked up the terms of reference for this work, which needs an expert in human biology and an expert in cue sports to work together. There was a considerable delay before a suitable cue sports expert could be found but that work is now about to begin.
We paused the claims in the courts while we pursue this process. We hoped it would be faster than waiting for a court date, and knowing we need this sort of expert report anyway if we end up in court. Getting to this point has taken more time, and consequently more money, than we had hoped. As a result we need to ask for your help again.
This second round of funding will be used to continue our case to see through to a conclusion with the inevitable ongoing legal fees. If the jointly appointed independent experts enable the two sides to get to an agreement, then there will be no court action and no further costs.
If we can win this for pool, it will provide a powerful case for other sports to provide fairness for women and girls too.
Thank you for your continued support in helping us to fight the unfairness. It is hugely appreciated by us and so many others.
Crowdjustice - Let women play pool!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/11/2024 11:50

Thank you OP!

TrainedByCatsToBeScathing · 28/11/2024 17:03

Thank-you OP, donated a little more

ByTipsyGuide · 28/11/2024 17:54

TrainedByCatsToBeScathing · 28/11/2024 17:03

Thank-you OP, donated a little more

Thank you!

OP posts:
Circumferences · 28/11/2024 18:00

“It is easy to say that Harriet Haynes’s success is down to her being transgender,” the statement continued. “It is more difficult to accept that Harriet Haynes’s success is actually down to her having a table installed in her house, playing constantly throughout Covid, playing every night and over 20 hours a week, playing competitive snooker, travelling the country to play against better people, having professional coaching and dedicating herself to her hobby that she loves. This is not a point about gender, it is a point about devotion to one’s craft.”

This is male privilege in a nutshell.

A man doesn't have systematic sexism to be up against, child rearing, worrying about personal comments about your bum every time you bend over to hit a shot, period pains, general economic hardships that affect women more meaning you actually can't go out there and compete every day with men who are "better than you are" because you have the school run etc etc.

When you see trans activism justified, you see the sexism a mile off.

Circumferences · 28/11/2024 18:01

The defendants have accepted that if it is determined that pool is gender-affected, then the women’s category must be male-free.

Ah, I see!

I'll add to the crowdfunding! Xx

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