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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Smith - Glosswitch substack - the toxic debate is not on both sides

15 replies

LoobiJee · 20/04/2024 10:04

Thanks to the poster on another thread who mentioned this. I thought others might like to read this excellent article by Victoria Smith.

https://glosswitch.substack.com/p/ok-karen-return-100-toxicity-free

Picking up on Cass’s observation that “the toxicity of the debate is exceptional”, certain people have decided this means “toxicity on both sides”. This was entirely predictable, but still. To hear the host of Kirstie’s Homemade Home insist that it was always possible to “discuss issues around gender politics openly”, given the price so many paid for doing just that, is unbearable.
^^
So I thought I’d rise above it and not think about it.
^^
Which, in true “don’t think of an elephant” style, led to me thinking about nothing but it, writing 3,000 words and opening a Substack account just to share them.”

OP posts:
Username65 · 20/04/2024 17:52

Thanks, it’s a great piece!

MarieDeGournay · 20/04/2024 18:51

'Left-wing men adore it because, after years of frustration at not being able to publicly hate women in the way their porn tells them to, they can scream in women’s faces, protest their gatherings, even assault them (after all, none of that is as bad as denying someone’s right to exist – these men are punching up!).'
Nailed it, Victoria Smith!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/04/2024 18:56

Yet another powerful article. So many men and women speaking so powerfully at the moment.
Such a contrast to the spittle flecked invective hurled at so many by transactivists.

LoobiJee · 20/04/2024 23:43

There are some great insights in that piece.

“There is a reason why, from the very beginning, rather than target actual transphobes, trans activists targeted women who wanted to be kind, but who also made it clear that we were thinking about the logical implications of gender identity as opposed to merely nodding along. Contrary to the “both sides” narrative, critics of gender ideology weren’t singled out for being extremist, but for being too reasonable. This was viewed by trans activists as particularly threatening, and in a way, they were right. We didn’t threaten their livelihoods and safety; we threatened the careful tending, maintenance and growth of their lie.

“Every single person who has ever lectured a feminist on the need for “more light, less heat” needs to grasp this: the last thing people who have staked their entire identities on a lie want is light, even when passed through the softest of filters. That’s why, whenever organisations such as Woman’s Place UK sought to discuss a way forward, trans activists responded with more and more heat. Light, to trans activism, is an existential threat.”

“Constant hyperbole is necessary to trans activism. It perpetuates the spiral. Were the spiralling to ever stop, you would have to acknowledge that the problem is not that some mythical bunch of women on Mumsnet want you dead. It’s that your sexed body, no matter what you do to it, is the same sexed body it always was, and how others perceive you depends on uncontrollable, ever-changing relationships, not blanket endorsement.”

“this world is the only one we have; reframing it as “anti-trans” is a profoundly maladaptive response to the fact that we’re all just human beings, not seahorses or clownfish.”

OP posts:
NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 20/04/2024 23:54

Cass interview in Times: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5058427-hilary-cass-interview-in-the-times

And, JKR is on the case.

The highly-regarded paediatrician who conducted the most thorough review ever undertaken on the medical evidence for transitioning gender-confused children has been advised not to travel on public transport for her own safety. 1/3

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1781688638448738663

Victoria Smith - Glosswitch substack - the toxic debate is not on both sides
songaboutjam · 21/04/2024 00:13

We didn’t threaten their livelihoods and safety; we threatened the careful tending, maintenance and growth of their lie.

Violence and threats win sympathy. A lot of social justice movements gain traction because the need for them is so obvious. Most people are horrified by smashed-up businesses, clearly targeted police brutality, minorities being spat on and beaten up, segregation, forced evictions and other clear-cut evidence of hate and persecution.

Reasonable questions, on the other hand, make people reconsider what you want and whether it's in your or society's best interests.

NotTerfNorCis · 21/04/2024 01:30

It's extraordinary the way TRAs are demonising Cass personally, and spreading disinformation about the report. Extraordinary, but at the same time unsurprising given their past behaviour.

lonelywater · 21/04/2024 01:43

NotTerfNorCis · 21/04/2024 01:30

It's extraordinary the way TRAs are demonising Cass personally, and spreading disinformation about the report. Extraordinary, but at the same time unsurprising given their past behaviour.

Not really. This was to be expected because Cass is sounding the all clear-the gig is up. They know this so for them its an existential fight to the death and they have to destroy her arguments (and probably her in person, given how dangerously bonkers some TRA's are) or they will go down with the ship. We are not done yet, not by a long chalk.

MarieDeGournay · 21/04/2024 11:15

NotTerfNorCis · 21/04/2024 01:30

It's extraordinary the way TRAs are demonising Cass personally, and spreading disinformation about the report. Extraordinary, but at the same time unsurprising given their past behaviour.

The awful truth about TRAs is that they have absolutely no hesitation, qualms or shame in dismissing Dr Cass as wrong wrong wrong, with a side order of academic dishonest and transphobia.

I mean, like what does SHE know about it, she's just another...
"Dr Hilary Cass OBE is a consultant in Paediatric Disability at Evelina London Children's Hospital, Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust. She was President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health between 2012 and 2015, and was awarded an OBE in 2015 for services to child health."
[Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health website]
The ideology is so ingrained that I don't think anybody or anything can reason with TRAs. Dr Cass tried, and they dismiss her as incompetent, so what chance do the rest of us stand?

SinnerBoy · 21/04/2024 11:25

MrsOvertonsWindow · Yesterday 18:56

^Yet another powerful article. So many men and women speaking so powerfully at the moment.
Such a contrast to the spittle flecked invective hurled at so many by transactivists.^

Ain't that the truth. They don't have reason, facts, or logic on their side, so they resort to rage.

Riva5784 · 21/04/2024 12:41

There are so many gems of truth in this article

The concept of gender identity places off-limits any recognition of our existence as social beings whose identities are constantly co-created through how we stand in relation to one another.

Identity is not just about how I think about myself.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 21/04/2024 17:48

MarieDeGournay · 20/04/2024 18:51

'Left-wing men adore it because, after years of frustration at not being able to publicly hate women in the way their porn tells them to, they can scream in women’s faces, protest their gatherings, even assault them (after all, none of that is as bad as denying someone’s right to exist – these men are punching up!).'
Nailed it, Victoria Smith!

Absolutely nail on head.

ValerieDoonican · 24/04/2024 21:40

Only half-way through and just had to come back on here to say how WONDERFUL the article is. And how moving. Thank you Victoria (and @LoobiJee for re-sharing).

ValerieDoonican · 24/04/2024 21:51

Riva5784 · 21/04/2024 12:41

There are so many gems of truth in this article

The concept of gender identity places off-limits any recognition of our existence as social beings whose identities are constantly co-created through how we stand in relation to one another.

Identity is not just about how I think about myself.

Yes I loved that line, and the follow-up: Trans activism is anti-social (in the most fundamental sense) and relies on a toxic grievance model to avoid falling apart.

ValerieDoonican · 24/04/2024 21:56

So many lines I could quote... just read it, read the whole thing!

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