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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Puberty Blockers. How exactly did we get here?

101 replies

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 12:32

I thought I'd write this as I see so many questions about why they are so contraversial and there is so much info being thrown about that it can be overwhelming.

So a brief history and how they were taken on by the Gender Clinics.

The main crux of the issue is that they are GnRH analogues. GnRH- which are gonadotropin-releasing hormones are released by the pituatory glands and GnRH analogues stop this process from happening. They control and regulate the development of the sex hormones in both males and females.

So they were used decades ago to 'treat' homosexuals when homosexuality was illegal. If a homosexual was arrested for having gay sex for example, the option was to go to jail or agree to take this drug. One key person who this happened to was Alan Turing, who later committed suicide. They have been used as well to 'treat' paedophiles.

They are also used to treat 'precocious puberty' in very young children, and are used for a very short time due to the known affects of the drug. It is also used for endometriosis.

Sidebar: the FDA in the USA reports 25,000 adverse effects, and it is linked to at least 1,500 deaths. And that is for use 'on book' ie being used for the things is it regulated to be used for.

So back in 2003, when the main cohort of people wanting to 'transition' was males, somewhere in a clinic in Amsterdam, it was suggested that these GnRH analogue drugs could be used in males who were being treated for 'gender dysphoria' because the drugs would suppress the physical development of the voice, the growth of a beard, the jawline and height and what grown up men who had 'transitioned' wanted to look at was allowing other men to pass as women more easily when they grew up.

They tried this drug on Patient Zero, and drug seemed to work.

Sidebar: a 22 year follow up study on Patient Zero reports that he hadn't managed to sustain any long term relationship, was ashamed of his genitals, but was assessed as a positive outcome because he had a job. It was reported that 'the concept of regret in transition isn't the most helpful framework'.

In 2004 meanwhile, at the GIDS in the Tavistock in London, Sue Evans reported that this was now being prescribed and there was no evidence as to the success of these drugs and a 16 year old boy had been referred for these drugs after 4 sessions. She blew the whistle but it was completely ignored.

Sidebar: it is impossible to do a blind or double blind study on puberty blockers as if a placebo is given, puberty will continue to develop so it becomes obvious very quickly.

It appears that across the board, the drugs were being used, off book ie they have never been approved for use to block puberty as a treatment for 'gender dysphoria' and the use ramped up over the years. The useage was also expanded to girls.

In 2011, the clinic in the Netherlands did a follow up of 70 people who had been prescribed these drugs as teenagers. They seemed to have done two surveys on them. The Utrecht Gender Dysphoria scale was used, which was initially done in their actual sex and the follow up which they used the opposite sex scale to measure the success, [the survery switcheroo]. They also used another 'Body Image Scale] which was also swapped out for the opposite sex scale. It is unclear how long any of these people had been on the Puberty Blockers, and unclear if they ever asked about any other side effects of the drugs.

Out of the people that responded, 15 dropped out [didn't respond]. They said they wanted to see who had gone on to full surgery but in other reports I found that these HAD gone on to full surgery, so who knows. They found that issues had been had by the other 55, of which some didn't fulfil the surgery requirements because they now were obese, or had diabetes, some refused to complete the survey and others couldn't be operated on due to 'short penis length'. It is unclear how many of the original 70 proceeded to surgery or whether it was 'successful' or not. It is unclear how much input the Dutch Clinic had with anything after the puberty blockers. It in unclear if there were any actual girls in this cohort.

Sidebar: if you start searching for treatment of homosexuals using Lupron the internet takes you down a road, and the end of which is that 'Lupron is no longer available'. However there are many names for the same drugs now. If you start searching for treatment of precocious puberty or endometriosis you get a swathe of reports on the damage and side effects and catastrophic issues from people whose lives have been destroyed by this drug, even after just a few weeks treatment. If you however search for puberty blockers, there is just the 'safe, effective, reversible' information from a huge range of clinics and what I would consider reputable medical insititutions.

The reason that the Cass report took 4 years is the impossibility of actually finding out anything concrete from any studies, it is like trying to nail oily spaghetti to a jelly wall using prawn crackers. The internet resists any cross referencing from one 'treatment' and named drug across different treatment protocols and links between one report saying the drug has massive catastrophic side effects and it should be a last and final treatment to another saying it is completely safe and reversible.

I've synthesised a fair amount of this information from the interview between Stella O'Mally and Sasha Ayed and the two medics who developed the Dutch Protocol, and using their actual words.

Michael Biggs did a deep dive into this protocol here which establishes that the use was documented as a standard treatment in 2001 by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association which later became WPATH. Two years before the Dutch Clinicians said that the drug regime began being used.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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DameMaud · 18/04/2024 12:38

Great idea for a thread!

loveyouradvice · 18/04/2024 12:59

thank you - really interesting. Much appreciated

Brielv · 18/04/2024 13:03

Interesting thanks!

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 13:56

So much niggles me about this whole shebang.

Anyway this just came along on my x timeline...about them looking at a Lupron Protocol for Autism back in 2009.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2009/05/critics_say_lupron_is_no_mirac.html

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DameMaud · 18/04/2024 14:23

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 13:56

So much niggles me about this whole shebang.

Anyway this just came along on my x timeline...about them looking at a Lupron Protocol for Autism back in 2009.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2009/05/critics_say_lupron_is_no_mirac.html

Bloody hell AlisonDonut!
That's quite a find.
From 2009!

The evidence to support the hype is lacking. University of Cambridge Professor Simon Baron-Cohen blasted the approach, telling the Trib, "The idea of using it with vulnerable children with autism, who do not have a life-threatening disease and pose no danger to anyone, without a careful trial to determine the unwanted side effects or indeed any benefits, fills me with horror."

Professor Simon Baron-Cohen | Department of Psychology

The Autism Research Centre (ARC), of which I am Director, has 12 programs of research, all focusing on autism. 6 of these are in basic research: (a) Perception and Cognition; (b) Neuroscience; (c) Genetics and Environmental; (d) Hormones; (e) Epidemiol...

http://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/pages/staffweb/baron/

DameMaud · 18/04/2024 14:24

And this!

But critics say the treatment is irresponsible. They warn Lupron can disrupt childhood development, interfering with puberty and jeopardizing kids' heart and bones.

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 14:25

I know. It is appalling.

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turbonerd · 18/04/2024 14:45

Thank you for your OP.
The horror of «cures» that are inflicted on autistic children is just mind boggling.

I realise the complete exhaustion from being the carer of an autistic child (I am one) can make people desperate, but I struggle to sympathise with the shame-element. Though of course times are, in some places, different now, and shame was very much heaped on families with a different child.

At the same time puberty does bring a sometimes very difficult element of extra worry and anxiety when you care for an autistic person. Especially when they are non-verbal and have reduced cognitive abilities. The development of a sex drive is difficult to navigate. Perhaps most in young boys where it is accompanied by massive physical growth, but certainly for girls as well.
I can sort of see where the idea of using puberty blockers came from, but it is definitely NOT a viable path for all the now obvious reasons.

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OvaHere · 18/04/2024 21:17

I was just going to mention using it to treat autism.

All the problems with Lupron have been in plain sight long before the invention of 'trans kids'.

Sometimes it feels like it was a drug in search of a market.

Bartoz · 18/04/2024 21:19

Childhood has become medicalised. It's seen by professionals and officials as a series of problems that require intervention either by therapy or drugs.
That's not to say some children don't require medical attention or care, they do. However a whole industry has developed that's totally dependent on intervention without any consideration of the long term consequences.

Incidentally it happened to motherhood and maternity about 25 years ago, it's happening to education now also and I can see it happening to the aged and elderly soon enough.

Ketzele · 18/04/2024 21:28

My dd was on puberty blockers (for precocious puberty) and it is terrifying reading these threads!

NotBadConsidering · 18/04/2024 21:33

Important sidebar:

One of the original Dutch cohort of 55, a male, died at the age of 18 after contracting ESBL E.Coli necrotising fasciitis as a result of using colon as part of a vaginoplasty procedure. His body would have turned gangrenous from the inside out. A truly horrible way to die☹️.

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 22:06

Thingybob · 18/04/2024 21:51

It in unclear if there were any actual girls in this cohort.

Surely this is the study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25201798/

It states that there were 22 transwomen and 33 transmen

I mean it was unclear from their discussion. I genuinely don't trust these study reports as I think they started with the end in mind rather than took a genuine look at what happened to the people.

I'd like the researchers to be really clear about their reasons for even including girls in the first place. It wasn't to improve passing when older.

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TheDogThatBarked · 18/04/2024 22:11

I agree there are huge problems with hornone blockers, but I think we should be wary of posting disinformation as it makes well-grounded concerns about this class of drugs too easy to dismiss.

I keep seeing this odd claim that GnRH analogues were used to castrate gay men before homosexuality was legal in the UK, and that they were used on Alan Turing. It's obviously false, as they weren't invented until the early 70s and weren't licensed for health use until the early 80s, some time after the death of Turing and the legalisation of homosexuality in this country. Alan Turing wasn't actually 'castrated'as such - as far as I know, he was given a synthetic oestrogen, quite a different class of drug. They were really only used at that time in prostate cancer, endometriosis and sometimes premature puberty, so far as I know. There have been trials in sex offenders, but to my knowledge these are quite a recent thing. Maybe they have been used against gay people in other countries - I have no knowledge of this, but not before the 80s at the earliest, and not against Alan Turing.

I wish I knew where this claim is coming from, and I wish (sorry, OP!) that people would be wary of repeating it, because it makes it too easy to write off this discussion as misinformation.

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 22:25

More than happy to be corrected. What drug is it that was actually used to chemically castrate men such as Turing?

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JanesLittleGirl · 18/04/2024 22:26

Can anyone show us when patient zero was prescribed GnRH analogues by GIDS?

I have searched and searched but cannot find when this first happened.

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 22:29

JanesLittleGirl · 18/04/2024 22:26

Can anyone show us when patient zero was prescribed GnRH analogues by GIDS?

I have searched and searched but cannot find when this first happened.

Patient zero was at the clinic in Amsterdam or Utrecht, was the inference by the medics. I've also not been able to find it out much about this person.

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AdamRyan · 18/04/2024 22:29

I was looking at this the other day and came across this article about Polly Carmichael/GIDS from 2016:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/13/transgender-children-the-parents-and-doctors-on-the-frontline

Carmichael says that because the treatment pathway identified by Spack [puberty blockers] is relatively new, “We don’t honestly know and, in fact, you can’t know the longer-term outcomes of these decisions.

Spack appears to have been pushing this treatment hard. Via mermaids/Susie Green.

Transgender children: the parents and doctors on the frontline

Tim Adams reports on the controversial issues surrounding trans children seeking medical help

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/13/transgender-children-the-parents-and-doctors-on-the-frontline

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 22:47

JanesLittleGirl · 18/04/2024 22:26

Can anyone show us when patient zero was prescribed GnRH analogues by GIDS?

I have searched and searched but cannot find when this first happened.

Found this about patient zero. FG. A female. Which doesn't make sense if they were looking to prevent males from developing in order to pass.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/15/magazine/gender-therapy.html

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OldCrone · 18/04/2024 23:20

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 22:25

More than happy to be corrected. What drug is it that was actually used to chemically castrate men such as Turing?

I think the drug used as that time was diethylstilbestrol, a synthetic oestrogen.

Diethylstilbestrol - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol

TheDogThatBarked · 18/04/2024 23:52

OldCrone · 18/04/2024 23:20

I think the drug used as that time was diethylstilbestrol, a synthetic oestrogen.

Wikipedia certainly seems to think it was DES, which would make sense. And it's a drug with its own very nasty history - actually, there are quite a lot of parallels with GnRH analogues in that reapect.

NotBadConsidering · 18/04/2024 23:57

A regular poster claims to have received puberty blockers via GIDS supervised by Russell Viner in 1997.